There is no evidence for abcense
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@Jo: RE: "One could look at nature and conclude their must be some mind behind it. Some purpose echoing through our lives and the universe."
NO! One could not look at nature and CONCLUDE their MUST be some MIND behind it without being completely delusional. One might look at nature and IMAGINE their MIGHT be some MIND behind it all assuming they were not intelligent enough to realize the actual intricacy and complexity of the entire cosmos. This person might assume and then ascribe purpose and pretend it was all made for humanity but they they would certainly qualify as delusional.
Unfortunately for your world view; Hitler had a great life as he moved from rags to riches. His death was probably about as painless as a death could be. Fully accepting the fact that he had serious mental issues, his life was one of respect, luxury and over indulgence. And then it ended. That is about all you get to say about HITLER.
Something to keep in mind. Hitler was a Christian. The motto of the 3ed Reich was not "God With Us" for nothing. Hitler followed the teachings of Martin Luther and had significant contacts with the Catholic Church. By eliminating the Jews, he was doing God's work. You really need to know a bit more about your history.
Hitler is still living in the lap of luxury by the feet of Jesus.
The "intricacy and complexity of the entire cosmos" should make one pause and wonder.
Wonder if it is nothing more than matter, energy, space and time.
Why isn't the "delusional" belief in God in the DSM?
"Something to keep in mind. Hitler was a Christian. The motto of the 3ed Reich was not "God With Us" for nothing. Hitler followed the teachings of Martin Luther and had significant contacts with the Catholic Church. By eliminating the Jews, he was doing God's work. You really need to know a bit more about your history."
Hitler may have called himself a Christian but by no objective standard was he.
Antisemitism and Christianity are mutually elusive even if the largest Church fostered it.
If Jesus had shown up at the Burgof he would have been put in the cattle cars with the other Jews.
The "Christ" in Christian was not a blond haired blue eyed German, he was a Jew.
Does not the Bible say there is no Jew or Gentile. Not at all the same as what the Nazi's believed.
The Nazi claiming to be Christians is a statement of culture or race, not of faith.
We are Christians, that is, not Jews, is what they meant.
We are not atheistic communist, is what they meant.
Not that they followed a Jew, or the Bible.
The Nazi were also men of European ancestry. Does that convict all white males?
What did the Nazi's do with "the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life"?
@Jo: RE: "The "intricacy and complexity of the entire cosmos" should make one pause and wonder."
Wonder all you want. What you have is mass, energy and space time. The only people doing the wondering are the people that do not assume they have all the answers. Asserting that there is a mind behind it all and closing the book is fucking ignorant.
2. Why isn't the "delusional" belief in God in the DSM?
IT IS - In the DSM-IV (Glossary) delusions were defined as follows:
Delusion. A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everyone else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture (e.g., it is not an article of religious faith). When a false belief involves a value judgment, it is regarded as a delusion only when the judgment is so extreme as to defy credibility.
This conflicts with the law of least restrictive environment. You are allowed to be delusional as long as you can support yourself, function in the culture, and survive.
I have not closed any book. In fact I am still reading.
Do I have this right?
According to the DSM-IV Jo's belief in God is not delusional?
Is there "incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary" to my belief in God?
That's called the no true Scotsman fallacy Jo, and Germany was a country of tens of millions of christians lets not forget. What's more only christians were allowed to join the German SS, so by any objective standard you're talking complete nonsense. I expect you will ignore your use of this fallacy as you do all the others, then whine when people suggest you're being dishonest.
Hitler and the Nazis didn't invent antisemitism, virulent hatred and persecution of Jews had been a defining characteristic of European christianity for centuries. I am not aware of any dogma based on being white that teaches antisemitism.
@Sheldon: Saved me a page of writing.
Why Christians hate Jews.
"A. Roy Eckardt, a pioneer in the field of Jewish-Christian relations, asserted that the foundation of antisemitism and responsibility for the Holocaust lies ultimately in the New Testament."
According to Rabbi Michael J. Cook, Professor of Intertestamental and Early Christian Literature at the Hebrew Union College, there are ten themes in the New Testament that have been a source of anti-Judaism and antisemitism:
The Jews are culpable for crucifying Jesus - as such they are guilty of deicide.
The tribulations of the Jewish people throughout history constitute God's punishment of them for killing Jesus.
Jesus originally came to preach only to the Jews, but when they rejected him, he abandoned them for gentiles instead.
The Children of Israel were God's original chosen people by virtue of an ancient covenant, but by rejecting Jesus they forfeited their chosenness - and now, by virtue of a New Covenant (or "testament"), Christians have replaced the Jews as God's chosen people, the Church having become the "People of God."
The Jewish Bible ("Old" Testament) repeatedly portrays the opaqueness and stubbornness of the Jewish people and their disloyalty to God.
The Jewish Bible contains many predictions of the coming of Jesus as the Messiah (or "Christ"), yet the Jews are blind to the meaning of their own Bible.
By the time of Jesus' ministry, Judaism had ceased to be a living faith.
Judaism's essence is a restrictive and burdensome legalism.
Christianity emphasizes love, while Judaism stands for justice and a God of wrath.
Judaism's oppressiveness reflects the disposition of Jesus' opponents called "Pharisees" (predecessors of the "rabbis"), who in their teachings and behavior were hypocrites (see Woes of the Pharisees).
Please give the reference for "only christians were allowed to join the German SS."
I am not committing a "no true Scotsman fallacy.
I am not changing the definition of a christian to exclude Nazi's.
He did pander to Christians, but he was a wolf in sheep clothing.
Hitler was a follower of a Jew?
Did he follow the precepts and commands in the Bible?
Did he beleive all humans are of one blood and all created in the image of God?
What do historians and close acquaintances of him say about his "Christianity"?
It is more accurate to say he was an Atheist than a Christian.
"the wide consensus of historians consider him to have been irreligious, anti-Christian, anti-clerical and scientistic. In light of evidence such as his fierce criticism and vocal rejection of the tenets of Christianity,numerous private statements to confidants denouncing Christianity as a harmful superstition"
"Ernst Hanfstaengl, a friend from his early days in politics, says Hitler "was to all intents and purposes an atheist by the time I got to know him"
"British historian Richard Overy, biographer of Hitler, sees Hitler as having been neither a practising Christian, nor a thorough atheist, but also notes the sentiment that Nazism and religion could not co-exist long term"
"Hitler, like Stalin took a very modern view of the incompatibility of religious and scientific explanation."
Here is some more information on the subject.
"Hitler's Propaganda Minister, Joseph Goebbels, saw an "insoluble opposition" between the Christian and Nazi world views. The Fuehrer angered the churches by appointing Alfred Rosenberg, an outspoken pagan, as official Nazi ideologist in 1934. Heinrich Himmler saw the main task of his Schutzstaffel (SS) organization to be that of acting as the vanguard in overcoming Christianity and restoring a "Germanic" way of living. Hitler's chosen deputy, Martin Bormann, advised Nazi officials in 1941 that "National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable."
"Many historians believed that Hitler and the Nazis intended to eradicate Christianity in Germany after winning victory in the war."
Jo "I am not committing a "no true Scotsman fallacy.
I am not changing the definition of a christian to exclude Nazi's"
That IS precisely what you did, and it was the very definition of a No True Scotsman fallacy, Jo. You can't start by pointing out someone is "bad" even citing your subjective interpretation of Christian doctrine and dogma, then when its pointed out they were a Christian claim being "bad" precludes them being a Christian. Hitler was antagonistic to established religions for political reasons, because he was a dictator, but he was a lifelong catholic. There seems to be a concerted effort by theists to deny this fact, but antisemitism and homophobia are both longstanding bigotries of christianity.
Atheism has no dogma or doctrine thus citing someone's atheism as causal for their behaviour makes no rational sense.
Hitler was a Catholic, he was baptised, and an alter boy, he claimed this throughout his life, even at the very end where all political mileage in the claim was lost. The catholic church formed a concordat with the Nazis, and Hitlers birthday was celebrated at a special mass in churches all over Germany, every year until his death. Try claiming they were not christians.
In Mein Kampf Hitler outlined his hatred for and plans to eradicate European Jews, and he claimed to be "doing God's work."
I am well aware that Christian historians have tried to distort the truth, only a biased moron would really try to deny these facts. Hitler distrusted the christian church, and he would undoubtedly have neutered their power over the populace, he was a dictator after all, but a christian dictator nonetheless.
Did he follow the precepts and commands in the Bible?
Do you Jo? Ever eat shell fish Jo, do you wear blended fabrics Jo, do you have any tattoos, ever had a blood transfusion, do you take unruly children to the edge of town and stone them, do you follow the bibles strict rules on buying owning and beating your slaves Jo?
You're using a No True Scotsman fallacy Jo. Fucking look it up please as I'm sick of you ignoring these basic tenets of rational debate and rehashing them again and again.
All SS soldiers were required to swear an oath to Hitler before God. Which fucking deity do you think that god was Jo? The fucking Jewish deity maybe...now it would be a strange coincidence in a country that was shown to be over 94% christian in a 1939 census, and where other religious demographics were systematically murdered, if that deity wasn't the fucking christian deity, wouldn't it? Himmler was a pagan, but not an atheist, and Hitler secretly mocked his beliefs, but none of the Nazis leaders were atheists Jo.
Try Stalin, your bigotry towards atheists will find a richer ground for your selection bias.
You should always read all the articles you link Jo.
"In Hitler's early political statements, he attempted to express himself to the German public as a Christian. In his book Mein Kampf and in public speeches prior to and in the early years of his rule, he described himself as a Christian.Hitler and the Nazi party promoted "Positive Christianity", a movement which rejected most traditional Christian doctrines such as the divinity of Jesus, as well as Jewish elements such as the Old Testament. In one widely quoted remark, he described Jesus as an "Aryan fighter" who struggled against "the power and pretensions of the corrupt Pharisees" and Jewish materialism"
"historians such as Richard Weikart and Alan Bullock doubt the assessment that he was a true atheist, suggesting that despite his dislike of Christianity he still clung to a form of spiritual belief."
"Reichskonkordat on July 20, 1933 in Rome."
Now tell me Jo was the Catholic church christian at this time? Or are you going to use the No True Scotsman fallacy there as well?
"The Reichskonkordat ("Concordatbetween the Holy See and the German Reich") is a treaty negotiated between the Vatican and the emergent Nazi Germany. It was signed on 20 July 1933 by Cardinal Secretary of StateEugenio Pacelli, who later became Pope Pius XII, on behalf of Pope Pius XI "
"the broader membership of the Nazi Party after 1933 came to include many Catholics"
Hostility to established religion was part of the totalitarian nature of Nazism. The fact remains that the death camps were run by the SS every single one of whom was required to swear an oath before God. An odd enough thing for an atheist to do, but a truly bizarre thing for an atheist to request?
Just as Stalin replaced the idea of the Tsars divine right to rule with his own persona as semi divine, this is the nature of totalitarian regimes. However once he'd established his power he reestablished the christian churches who were only too happy to collude with his plans, in order to better manipulate the patriotism of the people during WW II. Everyone conveniently forgets Stalin trained at a seminary as a priest, and modelled his secret police on the catholic order of the Jesuits, whom he professed to admire.
"A census in May 1939, six years into the Nazi era and after the annexation of mostly Catholic Austria and mostly Catholic Czechoslovakia intoGermany, indicates that 54% considered themselves Protestant, 40% Catholic, "
Now remind us Jo, how did secular communists and other religious demographics like Jews and Jehovah's Witnesses fare under Nazis Germany's tenure?
"Some Nazis, such as Hans Kerrl, who served as Hitler's Minister for Church Affairs, pushed for "Positive Christianity", a uniquely Nazi form which rejected its Jewish origins and the Old Testament, and portrayed "true" Christianity as a fight against Jews, with Jesus depicted as an Aryan."
"Nazism wanted to transform the subjective consciousness of the German people—their attitudes, values and mentalities—into a single-minded, obedient "national community". The Nazis believed they would therefore have to replace class, religious and regional allegiances. Under the Gleichschaltung (Nazification) process, Hitler attempted to create a unified Protestant Reich Church from Germany's 28 existing Protestant churches"
Hmm, why bother one wonders?
"Long-buried Vatican files reveal a new and shocking indictment of World War II’s Pope Pius XII: that in pursuit of absolute power he helped Adolf Hitler destroy German Catholic political opposition, betrayed the Jews of Europe, and sealed a deeply cynical pact with a 20th-century devil."
Hmm. Now was the Pope a Christian Jo?
These facile attempts by modern Christian's to falsely label all evil dictators as atheists is risible nonsense and of course utterly transparent propaganda. So fucking what if an atheist is evil, what has that to do with atheism?
How many atheists on here have murdered anyone? What doctrinal teachings or dogma does atheism contain to encourage or endorse any evil acts exactly?
As opposed to ubiquitous endorsements of things like genocide, ethnic cleansing, rapine, murder and slavery in the bible, to name just a few.
You previously said "only christians were allowed to join the German SS."
Now you say "All SS soldiers were required to swear an oath to Hitler before God."
I know what you would say if I had done that.
Can someone be an Atheist and beleive in God?
Would they be a true Atheist?
Do you realize how bizarre it is to claim Nazi were followers of a Jew?
"Do you Jo? Ever eat shell fish Jo, do you wear blended fabrics Jo, do you have any tattoos, ever had a blood transfusion, do you take unruly children to the edge of town and stone them, do you follow the bibles strict rules on buying owning and beating your slaves Jo?"
"As opposed to ubiquitous endorsements of things like genocide, ethnic cleansing, rapine, murder and slavery in the bible, to name just a few."
Your apologetics are not objective.
"if an atheist is evil, what has that to do with atheism?"
If a theist is evil, what has that to do with theism?
If a Christian is evil, what has that to do with Christianity?
Oh dear, someone has swallowed the lies and bullshit peddled by Richart Wekart of the Duplicity Institute.
Arclight time ...
Let's start with some basic facts. Wiekart spreads the garbage he does, as part of the more duplicitous well-poisoning on the part of the Duplicity Institute and its professional liars for doctrine, all performed as part of the creationist war on valid evolutionary science, a war that has been fought from the beginning with lies and bullshit on their part. Weikart's central theme consists of trying to place the blame for the Holocaust on Darwin and the theory of evolution, a piece of bullshit polemical gymnastics that no one with functioning neurons regards as anything other than a blatant exercise in lying for creationist doctrine.
Except, of course, that the holes in his fabrications are large enough to drive an entire tank battalion through. Let's start with some elementary facts. To start with, let's see if Darwin is mentioned anywhere in Mein Kampf, shall we? Along with some other key words? Here's the result of the experiment on my searchable electronic copy of Mein Kampf (Unexpurgated edition, original translation into English by James Murphy, available online at the Gutenberg Project website):
Number of occurrences of "Darwin" : ZERO
Number of occurrences of "God" : 37
Number of occurrences of "Almighty" : 6
Number of occurrences of "Creator" : 8
So already, Weikart's mendacious polemics are starting to look a little shaky, to put it mildly. But it gets better. Because Mein Kampf, and indeed several of Hitler's other outpourings, rather make a mockery of his tacky little attempt to poison the well here. Let's take a look at several appropriate passages from Mein Kampf in detail shall we? First, here's one of his monotonous anti-Jewish jibes:
Next, a succinct and fairly chilling encapsulation of observational psychology that, despite its source (whom most people would not consider to be of reliable provenance) is actually fairly astute, and part of which describes Pharisaic religiosity to a tee:
Next, a remark following his exhortation to strive to combat syphilis (which, needless to say, he laid at the door of "Jewish controlled" prostitution - some historians have one or two interesting theses about the connection between Hitler and syphilis by the way):
Mind you, the real killer passage is this one:
Let's see some more examples shall we? Later on, when waxing lyrical about the Volk, we have this:
Here is Hitler's version of 'charity begins at home' which provides us with some more insights:
An insight into the old maxim (courtesy of Seneca the Younger) that religion is considered true by the simple, false by the wise, and useful by the leaders, is also thoughtfully provided:
Once again, the vision of destiny rears its head again (along with the usual lament about Mammon, which of course Hitler identifies with nauseating predictability as being "Jewish" in origin):
On the subject of conflict with left-wing opponents:
Then, we have this, in which a crude diatribe on the crude and familiar Hitlerian theme of sexual corruption of young Aryan girls by 'inferior races' is followed by language that seems straight out of the apologetics playbook:
More rhetoric in the same vein (on the subject of asserting a powerful German nationhood and a call to arms against the Versailles Treaty):
This little discourse on Lebensraum is also illuminating:
So already, we're looking at a work that is replete with religious, and specifically Christian, references, of a sort that simply would not appear in any genuine 'atheist polemic'. But the wholly sleazy attempt to present Hitler as an 'atheist' dies a particularly painful death, when one realises that the Nazis signed a Concordat with the Catholic Church in 1933. However, the ties between Nazism and the Catholic Church run deeper - in Germany at that time, there existed a specifically Catholic political party, known as the Centre Party, which was the second-largest political party in Germany at that time, and which gave support to the Enabling Act of 1933, the act that provided Hitler with the dictatorial powers he needed to pursue the Nazi Party programme. Indeed, one of Hitler's principal lieutenants in the early days of the Nazi movement, namely Franz von Papen, came from a Centre Party background. Only after von Papen (a figure with a very colourful history, incidentally - Airey Neave devotes considerable space to this in his chapter on von Papen in his book on the Nuremberg Trials) was installed as Chancellor of Germany in 1932, and the Centre Party refused to support him in that office, did von Papen leave the Centre Party and begin his move toward full-blown association with Nazism. Meanwhile, Heinrich Brüning, the leader of the Centre Party, engaged in negotiations with Gregor Strasser, a then prominent Nazi politician, in an attempt to maintain some degree of Catholic influence over the ascendant Nazi Party. However, what none of the relevant figures could have known, was that Hitler had no intention of being a conventional politician once he obtained power.
Now the diligent will know that I've cited elsewhere, that Hitler was an arch-cynic, and he was certainly a reprobate of the most thoroughgoing order. But, he most certainly believed in a god of some sort, most certainly culled much of the fuel for that belief from contemporary christian culture, and made frequent use of christian imagery in his political and polemical utterances. As I have stated in previous posts elsewhere, his own particular species of theism was a peculiar one (though by no means unique) in that he considered that he was, in some sense, the next divinely ordained saviour. Again, a delusion that is not unique to him, but what of course was unique was the single-minded ruthlessness with which he pursued that vision.
However, possibly the killer thrusts against the assertions that Hitler was an atheist, and  extracted his ideological vision from anything arising from Darwin, centre upon three well-documented facts. First, the documented output of his public speeches. Samples thereof including an extract from one delivered on March 5th, 1922, at the Reichstag:
On 26th February, 1925, he uttered this:
On 27th october, 1928, in Passau, he uttered this:
On 15th February,1933, in Stuttgart, he uttered this:
On 26th April, 1933, during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican concordat:
On 24th October, 1933, in Berlin, he uttered this:
On 6th September, 1938, in Nuremberg, we have this:
Second, we have the rules contained in Die Bücherei, the list of banned books circulated across Nazi Germany, instructing Party officials to remove from, and destroy, copies of various works in libraries, etc, which is documented in more detail here.
This translates as:
Oops. Bit difficult to claim Nazism was a product of evolutionary theory, when the Nazis ordered the works of Darwin to be burned ...
Third, we have this exquisite passage from Mein Kampf, covering Hitler's limited understanding of biology, which, far from being an exposition of any evolutionary understanding, is in fact far closer to the creationist "kinds" nonsense peddled by various creationists in more recent times, viz:
A little later, this is followed by:
I'll leave aside for one moment that the scientific literature destroys this naive view wholesale, documenting not only that hybridisation in the wild is a naturally occurring phenomenon (indeed, I'm aware of half a dozen naturally occurring hybrids amongst Centropyge dwarf angelfishes alone), but that hybridisation followed by assortative mating is a documented means of generating new species, a means that has furthermore been replicated in the laboratory, and demonstrated thereby to WORK. (Oh wait, I provided a detailed exposition of a paper devoted to this very topic here!). Instead, I'll note that once again, we have a large body of observational data refuting the "Hitler was an atheist" assertion, along with Weikart's lies about Nazism purportedly being a product of "Darwinism".
However, if you want a particularly worrying insight into the underpinnings of Nazism, then we have to turn to the real underpinnings of Hitler's racial theories, which lie in a most interesting and highly entertaining source. Namely one Lanz von Liebenfels, who, in 1905, launched a periodical known as The Ostara, a luridly, floridly, efflorescently turgid and slimy publication whose essential view was racist and anti-Semitic, but which included some of the warped "theories" of Lanz von Liebenfels as described in much greater detail in his earlier work. That work rejoices in the wonderfully Pythonesque title of:
Theozoology, Or The Account Of The Sodomite Apelings And The Divine Electron
It's worth looking at this work in more detail, courtesy of this web page, which also provides those who can stomach this weird gibberish with a freely available downloadable copy of said work. Here's how this work is described:
Now Lanz von Liebenfels was writing this in 1904, and he took his cues with respect to metaphysics not from Darwin, but from Theosophists such as Madame Blavatsky. Indeed, it was Blavatsky's writings on "root races" that were incorporated in modified form into The Ostara. Moreover, Lanz von Liebenfels entertained some seriously insane ideas in his Theozoology, including the idea that the "Aryan" races were descended from "electric supermen" and that their destiny was to return to this state. I don't recall Darwin making much mention of "electric supermen" in The Origin Of Species.
Oh, by the way, here's a little something that was dropped into my lap fairly recently. Hitler's artistic dabblings have also been documented at length, but one part thereof that was unknown to me until fiarly recently, was this painting by Hitler. The work in question? The above work is none other than Mother Mary with the Holy Child Jesus Christ, oil on canvas, 1913. That's right - Hitler painted at least one piece of Catholic iconography.
Meanwhile, it is also apposite to introduce one Julius Streicher here, who was one of the most hard-core proponents of the "Master Race" theory after Hitler himself, and whose sordid career is discussed at length in Nuremberg by Airey Neave (Hodder & Stoughton, ISBN 0 340 18128 1) and deals with Streicher's pseudo-scientific utterances on the subject, which were repeated in less crude form elsewhere by other Nazi propagandists. Neave personally served the indictment of the International Military Tribunal upon Goering, Hess and the other top Nazis, and was an integral part of the British prosecution team at Nuremberg, gathering evidence upon such matters as the involvement of Krupps in slave labour, the concentration camp programme, and indicted criminal organisations such as the Gestapo. Here is what Neave has to say about Streicher on pages 93-94 of Nuremberg:
Not one mention of Darwin occurs in all of this. How bizarre ... or not, if one is paying attention to reality instead of propagandising for a doctrine.
Oh, and finally, just to ram this message home once and for all, I'll also quote for you the words of PZ Myers, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Minnesota, Morris, who wrote this op-ed piece in his blog with respect to this nasty and venomous little canard:
And with that final nail in the coffin, I think it's time to bring this Arclight outing to an end ...
Shakespeare devoted an entire play to this issue, in "The Merchant of Venice".
"Just because I cannot provide evidence of what is on the other side of the door doesn't mean I am wrong.
No more than you not being able to provide evidence for what you say is not on the other side of the door."
You are still inventing woo woo, and not able to support any of your assertions. Your first question was what happened on death. I based my response on the available evidence, nothing invented. But now you have taken this even further, and invented a "door"
Please provide proof or evidence on this "door".
Once you have provided a proof of this "door", then we can have a rational discussion based on reality.
Fact: nothing appears to survive the human body after death.
@ David Killens
The door is death. It is an analogy. I am ready for the discussion.
"Fact: nothing appears to survive the human body after death."
This is a faith claim and not a fact.
Can you provide testable, objective evidence for your claim?
"The door is death. It is an analogy. I am ready for the discussion."
If it is "death" you intend, then please do not use other language. Death is death, and it is not a door. Shall we use code words?
The business is on. I am trying to raise the balance for the Gummy Bear so he can submit all the needed Fizzy Cola Bottle Jelly Beans to the Creme Egg for the peanut M&M's process to start.
"nothing appears to survive the human body after death"
That is an observation. Of course, many refer to MacDougall's famous 21 grams conclusion later shredded by the scientific community for being very flawed. Attempts have been made to photograph, weigh, and use any other method to define or separate a "soul" from a person. All with zero success. I base my conclusion on observing that many attempts have been made over the years with zero results.
@ David Killens
I thought a one way door was a good analogy of death. Maybe not.
A soul, spirit, or mind would be able to be photographed and would be able to be weighed?
Of course they came up with nothing.
Neither could they detect the heat or light from the soul, but what does that prove?
What would a valid test for a soul look like?
How would you perform this test without running the risk of getting a false negative?
If tests are made that cannot actually detect the subject, how are those test evidence?
I am operating from the position that a "soul" is a product of an over-active imagination, just like Bigfoot and pixies.
For the same reason I am 99.99% certain neither Bigfoot and pixies do not exist, the same applies to a soul.
I am a retired electrician/construction worker. I kept myself alive every day by believing in real things instead of imaginary.
@ David Killens
Bigfoot is said to be animal.
It could be tracked, trapped, and targeted.
We could use Cognostics bear cave technique. :-)
How could you do anything like that for a soul?
"I thought a one way door was a good analogy of death. Maybe not."
Analogies can be a good thing, but i shun replacing one word with another, and that replacement word just makes things more confusing.
"What would a valid test for a soul look like?"
Let us follow the evidence. We begin by defining "soul". For example, some people describe near-death experiences as the soul leaving the body. OK, now we have something to latch onto. But all near-death tests have resulted in zero proof. So let us rule out near-death linked to the soul.
Some describe a nice person as a "gentle soul". But our present knowledge of psychology and raising the young strongly indicates that the person acquired those positive personal attributes from their environment. So we rule that out.
Another application of the word "soul" as in reincarnation. But there has NEVER been one example of reincarnation proven. My neighbor may claim to be the reincarnation of a Persian princess, but she cannot offer any details on daily life from that era. I asked her what kind of toilets they had, and she could not offer a response.
What I am doing is identifying characteristics of a 'soul" and where to look.
Jo, if you can add other definitions and characteristics of a "soul", then we can examine those qualities.
Oh really, care to demonstrate some objective evidence for one single example of human consciousness surviving the death of the human brain? Your dishonesty is tedious Jo.
As for my "dishonesty".
Please deference your post #282 on the forum "A question for theist" on 8/26/19.
You seem to have dishonestly ignored my question regarding your dishonest claim that human consciousness can survive the physical death of their brain, Jo, so how's that for irony....here it is again then...since you're dishonestly playing the man, not the ball.
"Oh really, care to demonstrate some objective evidence for one single example of human consciousness surviving the death of the human brain? Your dishonesty is tedious Jo. "
I think we can all see that the reason for your dishonest evasion of my question isn't much of a head scratcher. Yet again you e been caught making up a lie, and have no answer.
It is time for an intervention.
Your "questions" are pregnant with presuppositions.
They are more of a claim then a question.
They seem designed to entrap.
You seem to want a "gotcha moment" instead of a discussion or debate.
I have now asked four times for you to address when you misquoting me.
Please reference your post #282 on the forum "A question for theist" on 8/26/19.
You have never responded.
Yet you seem obsessed with inserting some form of "liar" into you every paragraph to me.
I wanted to have a reasonable and civil discourse with you.
You seem interested in something very different.
You seem much more interested in the attack than in the argument.
I don't know if you are insecure in yourself, or your arguments
Maybe you are angry, or want to feel morally or intellectually superior.
Maybe it is some sort of competition to you.
Whatever the reason.
Until you want something other than distorted discourse.
I will no longer be enabling you.
In all your excitement you ignored my question yet again.
"Oh really, care to demonstrate some objective evidence for one single example of human consciousness surviving the death of the human brain? Your dishonesty is tedious Jo. "
I am long past caring what you think you're getting, or what you think you want from these exchanges. It was never a debate as you're incapable of that. The reason dishonesty is in every post is because you make dishonest claims in almost every post Jo. Again when you show some integrity I'll stop pointing out the lack of integrity in your claims.
No, it's a scientific fact, did you not know that one day your organs including your brain will cease to function, and your consciousness will dissappear, and you will decompose? The empirical objective evidence is in every single human death, there has never been any objective evidence demonstrated even once to show a case where this does not happen.
I agree with all your scientific facts.
Is there scientific facts for your consciousness ceasing to live on outside the body after death?
Well that's not true for a start, we have all seen you deny known scientific facts on here.
Argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy yet again Jo, no one needs to disprove your claim that human consciousness survives the physical death of the human brain. It is for you to demonstrate some objective that human consciousness can exist without a functioning physical brain? We know the brain exists, and with it human consciousness, in every single example we have of human death, not once has human consciousness been evidenced to survive that physical death.
Do stop with these tedious appeal to ignorance fallacies Jo.
What evidence do you have that there is a god? What evidence do you have for an afterlife?
Xenoview, have you ever heard of 'derailing the thread' because that's what you do. That seems to me to be pretty much all that you do. The question of the this thread is the opposite of what you're asking so if you still want to talk about it after all the talking about it you've already done, go make a new thread dedicated to the one topic you're interested in.
You accuse me of derailing the thread, because you can't proved any evidence your god is real and there is no afterlife.
No. I accuse you because you ask the same question every time you open your mouth and it's never in the right thread.