What is with Atheists these days?
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Oh yea - I agree......
(Before reading any other responses...)
Angry and aggressive toward theists, huh?.... Hmmmm..... Interesting.... Personally, I happen to know many, many theists of various religions/denominations, and I happen to get along quite fine with most all of them. Friends and family alike. Matter of fact, the topic of religion rarely (if ever) comes up whenever I happen to be with any of them. We are simply family/friends/human beings interacting together with mutual respect and conducting our day-to-day activities in a civil manner. Doesn't matter to me a hill of beans one way or the other what he/she/they may or may not believe. As long as an individual/group respects me as a fellow human being and treats me with courtesy and kindness in an honest and sincere manner, then I have absolutely zero reason(s) to be "angry or aggressive" toward them. Why would I? As far as I am concerned, people are free to believe whatever he/she/they want to believe as long as that belief does not cause unnecessary harm to me or others, and as long as that person/group does not attempt to force me or others to believe as they do. In other words, I will treat a person in a manner that suits that person's behavior/demeanor toward me and others. If a person/group treats me with respect, then I will respond in same. However, if a person acts like a total douche and ass, then that individual will be treated as such. And I do not care what race, gender, religion, political affiliation, intellect level, or sexual preference that person may or may not be.
Most religions, on the other hand, (from my personal experience) are outwardly and proudly quite vocal about being horrendously biased toward anybody who does not conform to the particular religion of choice. Some (particularly Christianity and Islam) make it abundantly clear that a vast majority of society are deserving of eternal damnation and torture for not believing in and following their archaic "laws" and beliefs. But atheists are the bad guys?..... LMAO.... Okay, dude. Whatever you say... *chuckle*... For instance, YOU as a holier-than-thou Christian theist decide to join an atheist site and grace us with your presence so that you can remind us just how horrible and deplorable we godless atheists are, and that we are doomed to be tossed into a pit of fire when we die. Never mind the fact we are here minding our own business and chatting among ourselves about whatever interests we might have in common. Can't speak for other atheists, but I steadfastly refuse to visit any type of theist sites out of simple respect. And if I were for some reason ever to decide to log into a theist site, I would not dream of being rude, deceitful, evasive, and dishonest in the same manner a majority of theists who visit this site behave. But, again, that's just me. Therefore, whenever an individual makes a post on this site, I will respond to it according to the content/context of the post, regardless of whether the poster is a theist or an atheist. In my humble opinion, if a person is being rude and stupid, then that person deserves to be treated as such. And if cussing bothers you so much, then perhaps you should have chosen a more "politically correct" touchy-feely site. Just a suggestion...
Oh, by the way, who the FUCK is Elizabeth Warren, and why should I care???.... *scratching head*....
(Okay, now to go read what others have said...)
Another honest post, and I truly do appreciate it.
"YOU as a holier-than-thou Christian theist decide to join an atheist site and grace us with your presence so that you can remind us just how horrible and deplorable we godless atheists are, and that we are doomed to be tossed into a pit of fire when we die."
I addressed this before in another reply but I want to say it again. I AM NOT HOLIER THAN THOU. I have never once said, you are going to burn in the pit of fire, REPENT! I don't care one way or another to be honest. At the end of the day we are all held accountable for our own actions/beliefs, whether religious or not.
"Can't speak for other atheists, but I steadfastly refuse to visit any type of theist sites out of simple respect."
This is fair. And makes me reflect on why I'm even here. To be honest, I'm not quite sure. One thing I am sure of is I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I think maybe a small part of me would like to see someone change their minds, but that's not my goal. A small part of me (although I have been trying to deny this part of me as much as possible, it is hard!) likes to argue. I learned that from my large family who had to be louder than the next in order to be heard. Another part of me must like the intellectual validation when I make a good argument (although that doesn't seem to be too often). I think the strongest benefit from reading atheist points of view is that sometimes it gives me a perspective I may not be familiar with, and allows for me to think about things I haven't before. I actually learn a lot about my own faith from hearing you guys. And if you makes statements I don't know the answer to, I bring them to my priest and I learn! Having said that, I think I comment on these sites for my own selfish reasons, because I want to question and grow in my faith.
Honest question in response. Would you prefer theists don't post here? I suppose I could just read your comments, but that isn't as fun ; ) If you guys don't value my responses and feel as though it is disrespectful I am here, I will respectfully retire this username.
"I addressed this before in another reply but I want to say it again. I AM NOT HOLIER THAN THOU. I have never once said, you are going to burn in the pit of fire, REPENT! I don't care one way or another to be honest. At the end of the day we are all held accountable for our own actions/beliefs, whether religious or not."
1) Do you believe in the bible and follow the dictates of your religion?
2) Does your religion state that unbelievers will suffer an eternity suffering?
If so, then unfortunately you endorse hell and my eternal suffering by accepting your religious doctrine.
"I AM NOT HOLIER THAN THOU"
You scorched your reputation and created a negative environment by your first post. That post was arrogant, insulting, and condescending. You have but one opportunity to create a first impression, now you have to live with your actions.
I like your responses, DK. Very honest, and very insightful. Usually long and hard for me to address every point though haha.
"You scorched your reputation and created a negative environment by your first post. That post was arrogant, insulting, and condescending."
You are correct, my first post was intentionally inciteful because my original intention was to provoke for fun (troll I guess). Alas, it is not naturally in me to converse this way, and I quickly tried to remain civil instead. I apologize for the choice of words. I hope you don't hold this against me, because it is not truly who I am.
"1) Do you believe in the bible and follow the dictates of your religion?
2) Does your religion state that unbelievers will suffer an eternity suffering?"
2) Yes, but with exception
This is an interesting question that, when fully understood, actually demonstrates the difference from my belief and other Christian groups. It is hard to understand, and especially difficult to vocalize, but I will attempt to begin to explain.
Very simply, it comes mostly down to what is in your hearts (sounds cheesy, I know). The one thing we do believe, is that being baptized into the faith is the first and most important step towards salvation. This sounds exclusive on the surface, but it is really not because everyone has the free will to be baptized. We have the "rite" of baptism because Christ showed us, through example of His own baptism, that it is necessary for salvation. This is not to say, however, that being baptized alone is all you need. And I said "but with exception" because our church does not pretend to fill in the blanks for things we do not know. For example, the Catholic church could not explain where babies go when they die before baptism. Is it fair that such a being should go to hell? So they invented purgatory as a means to explain it. Our church does not believe in purgatory. If you ask our priest this questions, they will answer, we do not know, the bible, Christ, nor God, give us this answer. They can follow up with their best guess, but it is not dogma in the church. A priest has told me his answer is God, being all loving, will most likely take those babies into his bosom. The same is said of those that have never heard of Christianity. It wouldn't be fair to send those people to hell right?
What's important here though is this. What is salvation? What is damnation? We actually have a beautiful and metaphysical understanding of these concepts. Unlike most Christian groups (Catholicism for example) believe they are both physical places, and your deeds in this life determine which place you end up, through judgement at the gates. To some extent we believe this too. But the difference is "where" you end up is more of a state of being, based on your love of God, and left totally up to yourself.
Believe for the sake of this argument God does exist. You can either love Him or hate Him. Your choice. Remaining consistent with the belief that God is omnipresent, He is everywhere. When we die, believers and non believers alike, ALL will be reunited with Him in "Heaven". Now, whether you love Him or hate Him, determines how you feel being reunited with him. Imagine this. Joe had an affair with my wife, causing a hatred for Joe to brew in my heart. I hate Joe so much, I can't even stand being next to him. I avoid seeing him, because every time I do it reignites terrible feelings in my heart. I would prefer to never see Joe again, because if I did, I would consider revenge for betraying me this way. Problem is, we ended up at the same workplace, and our desks were next to each other. It is impossible for me to avoid him. Everyday when I go to work, I feel anguish, anger, revenge, hatred, etc. Jill though, loves Joe. She has fancied him since the day she laid eyes on him. She loves going to work because she gets to see his smile.
So you see, this simple analogy attempts to demonstrate that it is our own personal feeling towards God (Joe) that determines what kind of feelings we create. Both myself and Jill have to engage with Joe, but for one it is heaven, the other hell. This is how we view the afterlife. We are all reunited with God, and whether you love him or hate him determines heaven or hell. The "rules" in the Christian faith are based on what Christ taught us in order to grow in that love, to ensure that when we die, we are guaranteed a positive experience, sharing in the joy and love that God provides.
"Believe for the sake of this argument God does exist. You can either love Him or hate Him."
Unfortunately you are making a false dilemma. There is at least one other option. If I do not believe in the existence of this deity, I can neither hate nor love something I do not believe exists.
And if there was a god and I died, and faced this deity, my first words would be "where the fuck were you? You promised to reveal yourself yet played the greatest game of hide and seek of all time. I could have found peace of mind many years earlier, yet you did not reveal yourself. Asshole."
So I'm going to go to heaven. Cool. Can I take my music with me? Will a few flash drives be sufficient? Where's the babes and booze? Can I indulge in my passion, racing? Is sunblocker supplied? I intend to spend countless millennium on the beach, maybe even get in some fishing.
As far as Joe goes, I have taught myself to discard resentments and hatred. They are a cancer of the soul and toxic. Joe is in my past and means nothing to me.
"Unfortunately you are making a false dilemma. There is at least one other option. If I do not believe in the existence of this deity, I can neither hate nor love something I do not believe exists."
This is why I said "for the sake of argument believe God exists." Someone responded to a previous post that a lot of the atheists in this forum typically do respond from the premise that God exists. It doesn't seem like when you won't accept my argument even after stating "for the sake of argument believe God exists."
"And if there was a god and I died, and faced this deity, my first words would be "where the fuck were you?"
He is hiding in plain sight. If a miracle is performed and you choose to call it magic, why is that God's fault?
There is mention in the New Testament of Christ performing a miraculous act, one which couldn't be explained by science. Some, who were eye witnesses to this miracle said He must have done this by the power of the devil, or magic (they believed in magic then). Even to the people who witnessed Christ do these things, because their hearts were hardened and they didn't want to believe, passed it off as something other than the truth. It is up to you to see the world for what it is and interpret them as you see fit.
"As far as Joe goes, I have taught myself to discard resentments and hatred. They are a cancer of the soul and toxic. Joe is in my past and means nothing to me."
You know, you actually are starting to sound more and more like a Christian : )
Going to hop in here. (Sorry been busy lately and have not been able to keep up on this thread.) I actually perhaps crazily enjoy discussing this stuff. The more time I spend debating theist the more I understand them (even if I do not agree with theist stance.)
Ya know sometimes the best place to hide is in plain sight. Can't tell you how many times I go looking all over my house for my car keys, seat cushions etc, only to find out I put it up on they key rack in plain sight all along.
But question though: why does god feel the need to hide at all? Typically I hear something about "free will" from theist that answer this sort of question. But is it free will for a god to hide in a way that there is no evidence for him?
What about all the people that lived on different continents separated by vast oceans from where "god" decided to reveal himself (sort of)? If there was no christianity, no bible, do you honestly still think you would of found your "christian god?"
How come I never hear of stories where people that lived in total isolation, totally cut off from any outside human contact do not also find "god" that even remotely compares to your definition of your christian god? Is it fair for all the people that never heard of god to suddenly find themselves at heaven with this "god" they never heard of until after they died? That never had a chance to get baptized, never heard of jesus christ etc? If god does not care about any of that, and will accept you as long as you are a "good person" (Wow that is open to interpretation!) then why bother with the whole christian thing at all? Why not free up your sundays, enjoy life w/o god, as you will get plenty of time with the guy after death.
Not a god's fault to me. I have not seen/heard of any miracles where I called it magic. I just pick the most likely scenario available to me based on the evidence of any supposed miracles. There are a few miraculous like stories I have heard that could not be explained via science after investigation, but those are exceedingly rare, so rare that it fairly safe to say: something very unlikely happened and we do not fully understand it. But nothing in that leads me to conclude the possibility of a god concept.
I did exactly that. I quickly learned that evidence based conclusions are far more helpful and reliable then non evidenced base ones. Something we all learn. Fortunately for me I was not indoctrinated with a god idea at a young age and all my life, so I did not develop this concept where, we all learn evidenced based conclusions are the way to go but then make an exception for anything related to god. I simply stay at pure: evidenced based solutions is the way to go. And at least to me, examining the evidence that the various god ideas were created by humans telling tales that over time turn into legend and grew bigger with each retelling is to me at least very compelling evidence. I feel I saw the world for what it is, and interpreted that humans created the god idea, not that "god" had an idea to create humans.
While I consider Christians (or any other theist) to have been confused by the con that is the various religions, I actually have plenty of respect for anyone that strives to discard resentment and hatred and considers them toxic. I do not consider religions all bad, I think they have done some good, and any religion that teaches people to respect one another and not hold hatred is a good thing. If religions would stop trying to force their unevidenced opinions on others I would actually almost consider the various religions to be a net good.
Spending a lot of time discussing and debating religion with many different theist, I can even understand why some people choose to have faith in god and set aside the requirement for real evidenced proof. When my very religious grandmother died, the last thing in the world I wanted to tell her on her deathbed that there is no god or heaven based on the evidence. She died with a smile on her face (so I am told,) thinking she was about to rejoin her long lost husband in heaven and I truly understand her desire to want to believe that It is a very pleasant thought that can even help conquer the fear of soon to arrive fear of death. Reality can suck sometimes and a lie, especially on a deathbed can be very comforting.
▮I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
▮Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
Welcome back! I thought us theists actually scared you away!
"I actually perhaps crazily enjoy discussing this stuff. The more time I spend debating theist the more I understand them (even if I do not agree with theist stance.)"
I have the same problem. I should be working, but instead refreshing the page every 5 minutes hoping there is a new comment : /
"But question though: why does god feel the need to hide at all?"
This is a good question, actually. I did say that He is not hiding, we just choose not to see Him. But I know what you mean, And I don't know the answer. I sometimes wish there it was more obvious myself.
"How come I never hear of stories where people that lived in total isolation, totally cut off from any outside human contact do not also find "god" that even remotely compares to your definition of your christian god? "
It's possible that there are people that found God in total isolation. How could we know?
"Is it fair for all the people that never heard of god to suddenly find themselves at heaven with this "god" they never heard of until after they died? That never had a chance to get baptized, never heard of jesus christ etc? If god does not care about any of that, and will accept you as long as you are a "good person" (Wow that is open to interpretation!) then why bother with the whole christian thing at all? Why not free up your sundays, enjoy life w/o god, as you will get plenty of time with the guy after death."
Break this down into 2 parts. Again, I do not know what will happen to those people that die before baptism, or grew up in a country that never heard of Christ. But we hold the belief that God is all loving, so I am sure they will be treated fairly. This is because you are right, it is not loving to deny your love to someone who never had the chance to love you back!
Second part is about relaxing on Sunday's. Are you married? If so I assume you love him/her? Did you fall in love with your spouse the day you met him/her? Probably not. It took many dates, many conversations, learning from each other over a period of time. It wouldn't make much sense if you said "Why go on date's with this person, I'll have plenty of time to enjoy him/her when we're married!", so why would you think if you never went to church, prayed, learned about God etc that you would go to Heaven and/or enjoy it if you got there??
"Reality can suck sometimes and a lie, especially on a deathbed can be very comforting."
True statement, but you are leaving out the part about how it is actually sometimes harder to be religious than it is to be secular.
To name a few reasons why I struggle:
- Committed to going to church every Sunday and standing for a 4 hour long service when I am very tired
- Fasting (vegan diet) EVERY wednesday/Friday FOREVERRRR (hardest part for me). And regular long fasts (40 days at a time) in preparation for holidays.
- Because our Church uses a different calendar than the rest of the world, I am always fasting during secular holidays like Christmas.
- I am a convert. None of my family is religious except for my mother, and we are not the same religion. This makes it hard to participate with them in certain ways, and like I said before, I can not eat any meat during our holiday's together.
- I will not say I am persecuted for deeply holding my convictions, but there is certainly some level of judgement. People (as clearly expressed in this forum) tend to look down on religious people as ignorant.
- Can't smoke to excess, drink to excess, jerk off, cheat, divorce, etc
These things obviously seem trivial, but living this way isn't easy. Sometimes I do wish I didn't know what I know, and that it would be easier to be atheist. But honestly, I know if I didn't hold the belief that I am being held accountable by an all-knowing God, I would be homeless or dead in a few years; and doing those things I mentioned above have actually made me a better person. ( I think)
"He is hiding in plain sight. If a miracle is performed and you choose to call it magic, why is that God's fault?"
Go down to the local hospital, and go see children suffering horrible fates, and then tell me all about fucking miracles. Take off your rose-tinted glasses dude, where's your god's fucking miracles for those suffering children?
DoesAtheismEven... stop cherry-picking.
So a god exists. But until I have empirical evidence, I still do not believe in it. I was pointing out your dilemma. A person could still not believe in something that exists. There are people who do not believe in germs because they have never seen them.
Your god is not hiding in plain sight. If that is true, just where is it? You are a theist who claims a god, where is this god?
I never learned forgiveness or how to dispel resentments from any theistic teachings. That I did myself with some good non-religious training.
"If you guys don't value my responses and feel as though it is disrespectful I am here, I will respectfully retire this username."
If you choose to tuck tail and flee, that is your decision and not mine. The guilt trip and bullying will not work in here.
Ask yourself, when did the disrespect begin, and by whom? I will answer this question. You, post number 1.
Unfortunately, I have seen this too often. A theist comes in here, and runs away soon after. Almost all come from an environment where in any religious matters they are conditioned to never challenge religious doctrine. If they face a dilemma, they do not attempt to work through it by themselves, but instead run to their pastor or priest for guidance/clarification. So when they encounter this atheist environment, it becomes a hostile and toxic one because they expect to make pronouncements that are not challenged or subject to critical thinking.
I suggest you read Milgram's wonderful and seminal book "Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View" or even just read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
Look, I am not tucking my tail and running. I am genuinely asking. I didn't think of it before in the way you stated it, and I am attempting to be respectful. Let me say this. I would prefer to stay. Only if you ask, I will leave.
Then please stay. We can learn from each other.
What is with Atheists these days?
They are tired of being pushed around by the religious, their numbers are growing, and it's time their voices are heard.
They say a picture paints a thousand words? Guess I am still verbose.
@DoesAtheismEvenMakeSense: prove why Christianity is valuable. It encourages soft dialogue
We need to judge Christianity not by how it behaves in liberal democracies under the constraints of separation of church and state, but by how it behaved when it was in charge throughout Europe. When people have a choice, Christianity is oh so gentle and reasonable. When people have no choice, it's all tithes, inquisitions, religious wars and stakes.
The beast has been caged and tamed for now, but we must remain vigilant.
And the answer to your pen name is yes.
This is a good point. The English Christians do not have a good track record. Genghis Khan doesn't either though.
"This is a good point. The English Christians do not have a good track record. Genghis Khan doesn't either though."
Religion is toxic and cruel no matter what nation or time.
@DoesAtheismEvenMakeSense: The English Christians do not have a good track record. Genghis Khan doesn't either though.
The English Christians? Did you forget the Spanish Christians and their servants the Conquistadors or their support for Franco? The German Christians have an interesting history too, both during the Reformation and the Third Reich. And don't forget the nuns and priests who've been charged with genocide in Rwanda. Christianity has a long and terrifying rap sheet.
So Christians might not be as bad as Genghis Khan? Right now I can't think of a lower bar than that.
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you an atheist.
If that is the comparison, then the bar is set really low for Christianity.
Only problem is that all Christians are of the "fringe" group. No groups. Just one huge group. A group full of hatred, bias, bigotry, and delusion towards the human species.
Out of the 30,000+ sects of the cult of Christianity, what makes your cult the correct one?
Very good question. The Orthodox Church actually acknowledges themselves as "the oldest and most accurate" Christian group. I know everyone says this, but it is what I like about the Orthodox church (I grew up Catholic and hated it). When Christ walked the earth, he actually held Liturgy's. He performed baptisms, He preached what a Christian should believe and how they should act. Our church (to the best of its' ability) has maintained the services and perform them the same way Christ did! When you walk into an Orthodox church, you see it lit up by candlelight, and the only "music" is the Byzantine chanting style that was used in Christs day (they weren't big on musical instruments back then, unlike the catholic and protestant groups that use organs/guitars). I sometimes feel like I am walking into the catacombs (where Christians used to practice while they were under persecution by the non-christian authoritarians). We maintain the same fasting regiments that they did, and our church even uses the same calendar they did! (Gregorian vs Julian).
So if I'm intellectually honest, I understand it is hard to maintain tradition over time, and things are inevitably lost/changed. But all we know is what Christ did while he was alive and actively preaching (3 years really), and we do our best to maintain the same structure. This eliminates, as much as possible, the human interpretation of what we should be doing. We are doing what Christ Himself told us to do! That's what makes us different.
"When Christ walked the earth, he actually held Liturgy's. He performed baptisms, He preached what a Christian should believe and how they should act."
Jesus wasn't a Christian.
Do you have a passage that says that he performed baptisms?
@Diotrephes: Jesus wasn't a Christian.
"Jesus wasn't a Christian."
Well obviously not, and I didn't say he was. A Christian is the name given to the religious group of people that follow Christ's teachings after his death. He was born a Jew.
"Do you have a passage that says that he performed baptisms?"
Good point. It is unclear whether or not Christ actually performed any baptisms with water Himself. What I meant by my statement was that He showed the necessity of Baptism, and He Himself was Baptized with water by St. John the Forerunner.
Some versus that mention baptism.
John 3: 22-23 “After this Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where He spent some time with them [disciples] baptizing. John was also baptizing in Aenon near Salim.”
Matthew 3:11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
This verse from Matthew demonstrates our belief today. We are baptized with water, the same way Christ was baptized, but then mysteriously we are also baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire.
"It is unclear whether or not Christ actually performed any baptisms with water Himself."
In John 4:1-2 (CEV) = "Jesus knew that the Pharisees had heard that he was winning and baptizing more followers than John was. 2 But Jesus' disciples were really the ones doing the baptizing, and not Jesus himself."
"He performed baptisms"
"Good point. It is unclear whether or not Christ actually performed any baptisms with water Himself. What I meant by my statement was that He showed the necessity of Baptism, and He Himself was Baptized with water by St. John the Forerunner."
No matter how hard you back-peddle you still got caught in a lie.
Still did not answer the question, "What makes your sect the correct sect out of all 30,000+ sects of your cult?
haha pointed question. You might as well have asked me to prove God exists.
I may not have done that, but I am demonstrating that our Church seems like it at least has a better shot at doing it right.
If you want perform martial arts like Bruce Lee, isn't it best to learn from and imitate what Bruce Lee himself does? Sure, you could learn martial arts from Jackie Chan, but it won't be as close to the form that Bruce Lee has.