What is with Atheists these days?
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DAEMS: "haha pointed question. You might as well have asked me to prove God exists."
Exactly. Either prove that fignation of imagiment created by humans even exists.
DAEMS: "I may not have done that, but I am demonstrating that our Church seems like it at least has a better shot at doing it right."
Wrong. That is not OBJECTIVE HARD EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE.
DAEMS: "If you want perform martial arts like Bruce Lee, isn't it best to learn from and imitate what Bruce Lee himself does? Sure, you could learn martial arts from Jackie Chan, but it won't be as close to the form that Bruce Lee has."
You may as well have said if I want to be true Christian, I just need to follow the immorality of Heysoos.
Matthew 10:34-38
“Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.”
And if you go by this, even Heysoos has to hate his father (God) and hate his mother (Mary) in order to follow himself. No wonder your deities are fucked in head.
rmfr
Of course it is a pointed question, you religious apologists never waffle on endlessly preaching your sermons but never demonstrate any tangible objective reason for your superstitious beliefs.
Your analogy is facile, again. This is why pointed questions are needed or you will bore us all to death with your specious waffle.
What objective evidence can you demonstrate that any deity or anything supernatural exists? If you've got nothing have the integrity to say so. Otherwise piss or get off the pot...
For future reference, that was a great analogy...
*sigh* (and I'm told I have nothing new to add) psshhh
I'm going to avoid attacking this post for being incoherent, because I think I know what you're getting at anyway. Except your contradiction while describing my analogy. I'm honestly not sure which one you believe. Was it a great analogy or a facile one. If you believe it is facile, why would you say so. Also, curious if you have ever made a post that didn't include a blatant insult. Not offended, just curious.
Honest question Sheldon. What are you looking for that would count as proof in your mind?
Here's the thing, I don't have scientific proof. I am not so arrogant as to believe I suddenly have the answer to a question that brilliant mind's have been pondering over since the dawn of man. I personally believe it IS true, but I'm not going to pretend I can whip up a 3 point logical argument that says "BAM, God therefore must exist". All I have been doing here is offering a Christian perspective on certain issues, and trying to explain what it is we believe. When I line up everything I know about things, it points me in the direction that God exists. You see the same things, and come to a different conclusion. Simple as that.
@ DAEMS
That just means you can believe in what you lack, while we lack a belief in what you believe.
If you have no OBJECTIVE HARD EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE, then that ends your discussion. Quit proselytizing.
Just wish AJ777 could be as honest... sigh...
***tree slowly shambles back into forest with limbs hung low***
"At least one can hope..." you hear said before tree disappears...
rmfr
"If you have no OBJECTIVE HARD EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE, then that ends your discussion. Quit proselytizing."
This is an interesting comment. Correct me if I'm wrong, but science works the same way. Consider this.
What is a hypothesis? Is it not what you believe could be true based on current knowledge? That is then tested through a series of experiments, that either confirms it's validity or not. This means the discussion only BEGINS when there is a lack of empirical evidence, no?
Before Alexander Graham Bell inventing the telephone, he had to first BELIEVE 1) that it was possible and 2) that electricity behaves in a certain way that sound could be carried through the wires and 3) Convince investors that it would actually work.
We don't have the science right now to unequivocally prove God exists in the way you want it to. But who knows, maybe we will some day. You don't think its' valuable to continue the discussion?
@DAEMS
1 key difference between god and the telephone.
1 man, albeit likely a smart man, with a team of people helping him, was able to make the phone work using advancements of earlier work before him, like the discovery of electricity etc. And now we have those physical phones we can hold in our hands and talk to someone far away.
Where as god has multiple religions with all their power and money and people involved have had 2000+ years to prove any possible whiff or semblance of a god and have failed to do so for 1000's of years.
Does that concern you? Alexander Graham Bell being able to figure out phones from concept to reality, within a few years, but all the religions in the world have utterly failed to do so despite all the time and power and money they have? If so many people were so involved in proving their gods have failed to do so, for so long, what does that tell you about the god concept? Call it a hypothesis if you want.
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▮I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
▮Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
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Or another to put Logic's post...
the "phone" hypothesis was testable.
the "god" hypothesis is not testable.
thus, the "god" hypothesis is not even a hypothesis. it is nothing more than a presupposed assumptive assertion with absolutely no evidence to back it up nor can it be tested.
rmfr
@DoesAtheismEven...
"What is a hypothesis? Is it not what you believe could be true based on current knowledge? That is then tested through a series of experiments, that either confirms it's validity or not. This means the discussion only BEGINS when there is a lack of empirical evidence, no? "
We now have a hypothesis, that a god exists. How do we test it? There are methods since this god occasionally does things on this physical world, such as cause floods, burning bushes, talks to people, answers prayers. Hmm, that's a lot to work with, and grounds for multiple testing options.
"We don't have the science right now to unequivocally prove God exists in the way you want it to. But who knows, maybe we will some day. You don't think its' valuable to continue the discussion?"
My impression is that you are reluctant to put your faith to the test. If we can peer inside the atom and sense gravity waves from 1.3 billion light years away, I am sure a few bright minds can run tests. Or is it your logical mind telling you that a god can never be proven?
I am willing for testing to be conducted, either result does not frighten me. How about you DoesAtheismEven...?
"If you want perform martial arts like Bruce Lee, isn't it best to learn from and imitate what Bruce Lee himself does?"
Bruce Lee did not teach himself, he learned from various different martial arts and then evolved and incorporated it into his Jeet Kune Do.
Your particular faith does not evolve and grow, it is static.
DoesAtheismEvenMakeSense: "It encourages soft dialogue rather than a hateful stampede from lost, self righteous leftists who probably all believe Elizabeth Warren is Native American. Who Agrees?"
And what is that saying about the pot and the kettle?
Who is Elizabeth Warren?
And you Christians are never known for your soft dialogue. Never.
rmfr
@ DoesAtheismEvenMakeSense
Now I am going to prove your point about how I respect those who make an OP as disrespectful as yours.
I am neither a leftist, nor a rightist. I am a "fuck you up the middlest."
rmfr
@DoesAtheismEvenMakeSense: lost, self righteous leftists
Where did that come from? I don't see any correlation between atheism and the politics of left or right. Christianity is firmly associated with the so-called right in the United States, but in other places many Christian churches have show strong support for the statist, big government, control economy ideas traditionally described as "left-wing". I'm sure atheists cover the spectrum just as broadly.
In New Zealand, for example, many churches have sung in the same choir as tax-and-spend socialists, despite clear evidence of the harmful effects of excessive taxes and welfare on the very people they think they're helping.
"Leftist", "rightist", "fascist", etc., are just silly labels hurled by idiots who lack the intellect to form coherent arguments.
DoesAtheismEven, I take exception to your putting all folks who are identified as atheist is one big behavioral group. I don’t do that with theists because I am able to discern that each is an individual and I typically address each in that way. Perhaps you could have a productive conversation if you avoided that sort of clustering. Of course, that’s IF you actually want a productive conversation.
A few thoughts on this...
1. Atheists are generally just more straight-forward, and to-the-point with their comments. While I don't agree with any intentionally hurtful use of profanity (many times a discreditor in my opinion), I would say that many times, theists just get really upset at comments made that discredit their position - when that is not, at all, "personal" from the atheist point of view. Basically, theists take things personally that are "just business" from the perspectives of logic and reasoning, and get hurt and confused and think they are being attacked - when many times that is not, at all, what is happening.
2. I have seen theists (more than any somewhat cohesive group I know of) be more passive-aggressive, make more assumptions, and make more statements implying derogation (for example, "not cast pearls before swine" - equating nonbelievers with "swine" - the disparaging term for a pig) than I have EVER seen atheists do. If an atheists is going to call you out, or call you something, there's no wondering about it - the statements are made plainly. Theists tend to be secretive, try and mask their intent, and are generally just a lot more dishonest about their insults - to the point that, while you may think theists are more calm and respectable - from what I have seen that is mostly a veneer, and the comments that come from them are extremely passive-aggressive, with a good dose of "I can backtrack out of this and say I didn't mean what they read into it if they call me out on it."
3. I feel like a greater majority of theists remain cognizant of their being representatives of their chosen faith, and for this reason (as mentioned above), they are more stealthy with their attacking words. Plus many religions are either trying to convince nonbelievers, or are actively recruiting members - so they don't want to estrange people by being blatantly aggressive and profane. But many atheists are "lone wolves," because they know they don't represent a larger body of atheists. It doesn't take membership or group-identity to be an atheist. So the atheist has less to "lose" if they go out on a limb and berate or aggressively challenge someone.
@DoesAtheismEvenMakeSense offers no evidence, only opinion, and resorts to the behavior that he criticizes in others.
He follows a religion that promotes eternal torture of those who do not follow it, and somehow thinks atheists are aggressive by comparison.
"DoesAtheismEvenMakeSense offers no evidence"
Evidence of what? Nobody has asked me anything directly other than "SHOW ME EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE THAT GOD EXISTS."
I have stated it cannot be done by offering a single line of the Bible out of context, in the same way that quoting Old Testament lines should not be used as a defense against it. I am, through many long posts and replies, trying to convey our overall belief.
Claims you made:
Atheists: "They're always talking about God. "
are: "angry and aggressive atheists are towards those who believe in God"
also; "I’ve seen a few especially in this forum that remained pretty civil while the others just cussed left and right. Aside from that there seems to be an air of superiority amongst atheists, immediately regarding any believer as lesser or ignorant, before a question is even asked. Seems almost to me that these attitudes prove why Christianity is valuable. It encourages soft dialogue rather than a hateful stampede from lost, self righteous leftists who probably all believe Elizabeth Warren is Native American."
Christians: "generally are pretty well mannered."
No book can validate it's own claims, that is axiomatic, if it weren't then the Harry Potter books would be evidence for magic and wizards.
Again, another good analogy, you're welcome.
Why do you fear direct questions and evidence? Doesn't that tell you something?
@ DAEMS
Definitely, please answer this one...
Sheldon: "Why do you fear direct questions and evidence? Doesn't that tell you something?"
Please answer this question if you answer no others...
rmfr
So you cannot offer any proof, period. All you are doing is what many others have done, come in here and state that "I believe, god makes my fuzzies all a-tingly"?
@ DoesAtheismEvenMakeSense (DAEMS)
And what did Voltaire say once? Paraphrased: “Those who would believe in any absurdity will also commit the greatest atrocities.”
Boy does that sum up Christianity in true truth. Christianity, all by its lonesome, is responsible for more… well, let's take a look, shall we?
And you supposedly peaceful and loving (BULLSHIT!) Christians have been doing the above list (which is NOT completely exhaustive!)in the name of God for millenia around the world to spread such a theological message. But I am the one going to Hell for not believing in this nonsense?
And here are some other interesting facts. Do you even realize whom the leaders of the Christian churches go after? And they are specifically trained to go after these people. According to the last survey I saw (will have to go find it) more than 80% of all Christians only have a high school diploma or, never completed high school. Of all atheists surveyed, more than 80% have at least two Baccalaureats or higher degrees. Hmm...
Seems to show that the higher the education, the less belief there is in any religion. Why? Because once you are in college, especially for physical science degree, it will force you to learn how to utilize critical thinking, logical and deductive reasoning, and rational and analytical thought. Something no religion teaches except for those who wish to learn how to be a church leader and fleece the sheeple. Why don't you go and study more science and see if you can believe the bullshit evil lies of religion?
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Religious Persecution
What is the first thing you think of about “religious persecution?” Is it someone who persecutes you for the religion you believe in? Or, is it the more accurate definition of persecution of unbelievers for not believing in and worshipping your God? Think Critically about this. Religious Persecution is actually the persecution of unbelievers by Religious Absolutists and Apologists. You are religiously persecuting those atheists for not having a religion. Why? Do you realize this is also in DIRECT VIOLATION of the First Admendment? I could even sue every last religious organization in the United States of America for violating my First Admendment right to have whatsoever religious beliefs I wish to have, even if is no belief. However no court would ever hear such a case due to not wanting to look anti-Christian.
I received a story in my email from the Atheist Republic. The paragraph below is an excerpt from that email.
“In 2012, Greek citizen and scientist Phillipos Loizos created a Facebook page mocking Elder Paisios, the late Greek Orthodox monk seen by many as a prophet. On the Facebook page, he referred to the monk as Pastistios, giving a nod to Pastafarianism. He also replaced his face with an image of pastitsio, a Greek beef dish. For this, Loizos was arrested for blasphemy. He was later found guilty of insulting religion and sentenced to ten months in prison.”
When I saw this paragraph, it reminded me of my wife’s parents who had immigrated to America. The reason why they fled Greece and came to America? Religious persecution. Her parents were persecuted by the Greek Orthodox Church because they were atheists. And you Religious Absolutists have the balls to say we atheists are the ones persecuting you. All you theists do is persecute us since you are still the ones in power. You are the ones who persecute because you cannot answer our questions. You persecute us because you find that us atheists live lives that are more moral than any of you theists. All us atheist have been doing, as AC Grayling once said (paraphrased), “is presenting you with some arguments and some challenging questions, and all you thiest can do is complain like a bunch of childish, spoiled brats.”
Well, I hate to break it to you, eventually you are going to be the ones in the minority as you keep chasing persons away with your lies and faerie tales. Persons are becoming more educated. With the advent of the WWW, they can look into the claims you theists make. They can find that your claims are nothing more than fabricated apologetic lies.
Us atheists are persecuted here in the United States. Here are a few facts for your entertainment.
And some from around the rest of the world…
You get the idea. You Religious Absolutists are so persecuted in America that the government allows you to keep hundreds of billions of dollars in offerings tax-free. Damn, I wish my ass was persecuted like that.
Contrary to their claims, Christians still do not face ANY persecution in America. They are confusing a war on religion (and that is a term of the Religious Absolutists, not atheists) with not having the right to get everything they want. Christians enjoy all the rights they have always had under the First Amendment. All they are losing is the privilege of forcing their beliefs on unbelievers without protest.
Atheist: Wonders why you are not an atheist and jokes about it.
Christian: Condemns you to eternal damnation in Hell for not believing in God.
Which is more damaging?
And you Religious Absolutists have it all wrong. It is us Atheists that are suffering Religious Persecution. It is the religious that are persecuting us. We have never persecuted you. All we have ever done is offer some very good questions and thought provoking ideas for which, if there were no laws against such, you would still burn us at the stake for even thinking of asking those questions.
Thus, as the title of this wild tangent says, you are the ones performing Religious Persecution. And if you Religious Absolutists try to reverse this by saying you are suffering Atheistic Persecution, then you are truly the deluded dumb asses I claim you to be. We Atheists are NOT persecuting you. We are simply arguing against your preposterous, absurd, outrageous, presupposed assumptions, and deplorable claims of a supernatural super-being who has ultimate knowledge, ultimate power, and ultimate goodness (NOT!). Our questions and arguments are not the discrimination and persecution we still suffer at your whims.
======================================================================
Some Research Into The GOOD Of Religion
Author’s Note: Since I do not have access to coloring text on this site, I am using emphasis and bold for the distinctions below.
“Current research evidence does not support the common view that religiosity is positively correlated with good morality,” said Sam Harris.
In fact, I used QGIS software, and the TIGER data from the Census Bureau and crime data files from the FBI to see how correct his statement is. It took me several months, but my research has shown that the more religious a population, the higher the crime rates, specifically violent crime. While the same research shows that the more educated (thus less religious) a population, the lower the crime rates. If religion is so damned good for us, then why does it seem to spawn so much more violent crime?
Here are some research numbers (although listed below as green and red, I have to use bold and emphasis):
This is only in the United States, perhaps the most religious nation on Earth (excepting some Muslim nations).
Notes on how I chose these listings. With the cities/states I chose enough from the list to get at least “3” of whichever color. The only exceptions are the 20 most safest cities due to the fact that to get a third “red” city, I would have had to take the top 38 most safest cities making it 3 are red, 35 are green giving a ratio of 1:12. I figured a 1:9 ratio was bad enough. And to really add insult to injury, to get the fourth “red” safest city, it would been 52 cities making it 4 are red, 48 are green, still a 1:12 ratio. And you call us atheists dangerous and immoral, and to be trusted less than rapists and murderers? What was it Jar Jar Binks said? “How wuude!”
And to add more insult to injury, the first red “most safest” city does not appear until number 16. And to pour salt in the wound, in the “most dangerous” cities, the three green ones are numbers 19, 22, and 25. So much for atheism being so dangerous.
On the highest theft, I could have stopped at 21 cities making 18 are red, 3 are green. Since adding the 22nd city would lower the ratio (from 6:1 to 4:1) I decided to be a nice guy and cut you Religious Absolutists some slack. I also made it match the number of highest murder states.
I made the choices above just so I would not have to listen to your whiney-ass pleas about being a vindictive atheist. See, us atheists are actually good people.
Reiteration: If religion is so damned good for us, then why does it seem to spawn so much more violent crime?
More shocking numbers on the goodness of religion (researched as an afterthought):
If Atheists are so damned immoral… why does the prison population not reflect this? And look again at the first one. This definitely warrants: “God Damn, what the fuck is wrong with you Christians?”
I mean, “93% of convicted child molesters identify themselves as Christian?” What the Hell kind of Fucked Up crap is that?! And since, when?, the mid-80s, this has really come back to bite you Christians in the ass.
Trust me. I understand the bullshit lies with the Bible and the Qu’ran. Much better than your closed mind does.
And you have yet to prove it. See the section about Religious Persecution above.
And from what I have read, thank you. As David Killens said earlier, we can learn from each other. Keep up the good work.
Even if we were to take the entire Bible as the “context”, the Bible is nothing more than a “claim.” It is not “evidence,” regardless of anyone's beliefs.
And just in case this comes up with you, I am very much like Christopher Hitchens. I do not give a damn if anything I say may offend anyone. If you find my arguments offensive, then the problem is not me. The problem lies with you.
And to truly nail my points home…
rmfr
Dang. This is a long one. I will admit, took me a while to get through it. You have clearly put in some time for research! Obviously, there is just too much here to address, and doesn't seem honest to pick out one or two that I might have a good response to, so I won't address any. That is not to say I am running away. If you would like me to address something, let's do it one or two at a time. I am clearly not as smart as you (obviously why I'm a christian), so bring it down a level.
I will say this though, I am not offended personally by anything you or the others say, so don't worry about that.
"When I saw this paragraph, it reminded me of my wife’s parents who had immigrated to America. The reason why they fled Greece and came to America? Religious persecution."
This stuck out to me, because my wife is Greek, and we are both Greek Orthodox. I'm sure your wife's story is true, and I won't speak to it. My wife's family came to america for political freedom. Greece is pretty screwed up. My wife's grandmother tells stories of having to eat literal paper in the evenings just to fill her stomach. This wasn't because of religious persecution, though, it was because the government was corrupt to the gills and ideologically screwed up.
@DoesAtheismEvenMakeSense: it was because the government was corrupt to the gills and ideologically screwed up.
Unfortunately corruption, political turmoil, economic chaos, and frequent revolutions are the hallmarks of societies dominated by Catholic/Orthodox Christianity.
This is a wildly unsubstantiated claim.
DoesAtheismEven...This is a wildly unsubstantiated claim.
Catholic/Orthodox countries: Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Venezuela, Brazil, Colombia, Mexico, Russia, the Philippines......
Protestant/secular countries: UK, Germany, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, New Zealand, Australia, Canada... (Not sure about the US!)
In Catholic/Orthodox countries, the churches have traditionally supported despots, emperors and dictators and helped to keep the poor people in line with fairy stories about hell and heaven. Napoleon reportedly said that religion was great stuff for keeping the common people quiet, and he wasn't talking about Protestant England.
Read "Animal Farm" by George Orwell and see if you can guess which animal represents the Russian Orthodox church (clue: black, with wings).
DoesAtheismEvenMakeSense: "I am clearly not as smart as you (obviously why I'm a christian), so bring it down a level."
Don't you ever say that again. Don't you ever assume I am "smarter" than you. More accurately, I may, MAY, be more educated and more knowledgeable, but don't ever assume that means I am "smarter" than you.
I would hate to have to hunt you down and put you over my knee and give you a spanking.
Gosh, I have had far too many people that. I do not like it. I am just as dumb as everybody else. I shall admit I have a small bit of knowledge, but that does not make me smarter. As said, I have written about... uhm... 165 pages plus 238 pages and 398 pages makes about 800 pages about religion. Damn. Even I did not know it was that much. However, I am also working on compiling it all into one book and subtracting the repeats of stuff. That would actually knock it down to about 500 pages or less.
My main areas of expertise are the flood myths and the Exodus stories. For more modern research, and he has done a bang-up job, is to ask Old Man to repost some of his stuff. I have learned a lot from him. I focused into the flood myths and Exodus because those are the two greatest lynchpins for Judeo-Christian beliefs. Proving those to be false causes the rest of the Bible to fall flat.
So your wife is Greek also? Damn, I'd love to talk with her. Sadly, me wife and twin daughters were murdered by a drunk driver. Only I was the sole survivor. And yeah, the secondary reason me wife's parents fled Greece was also the government. Their primary reason was due to being atheist and being persecuted by the church.
Anyway, let me stop. As you can see, I can get verbose.
Remember: Do not ever say anybody is smarter than you.
rmfr
Holy shit man, I'm so sorry to hear that about your family. I can't even imagine what I would do if that happened to me.
Okay I changed my mind. In order to be honest I have to acknowledge the bullahit ripe with this essay. I like you, but so much of what you say is false. It is hard for me to argue my point, when you say so many utter lies. I haven’t yet uttered lie about science. You on the other hand, say nothing true about Christianity.
Yes, that is very useful for analyzing the validity of a formal proof; do you have one to offer?
Sure. Now taking the premise that "God Exists", we can postulate that God Exists! Boom!
jk : )
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