What better explains reality: atheism or theism?
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There is no purpose. The only purpose of life is life. What you make of it is what you make of it.
Well in that case why are you debating with me? Without a purpose, can there be any such thing as right and wrong? As I said in another post, if a doctor had no purpose of saving life, would it matter what treatment he offers his patients?
I also use a knife to clean my fingernails. When I did not have, a knife also makes a decent flathead screwdriver. I have used a knifed as veggie scrapper when I did not have a peeler. Need I go on? You have just been proven wrong.
No it does not.
And still cannot provide any OBJECTIVE HARD EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE as I have asked of you repeatedly.
Damnit! Tin-Man! Where is that Ark you promised that help against the ever-deeping flow of excrement? You promised.
As said, Atheism describes nothing. It is a "lack of belief in any gods." Nothing could be simpler.
As for explaining reality, religion does not even come close.
And you are the stupidest, dumbest, most retarded theist currently posting. Except for "satirical wiseass" (formerly quip).
"Well in that case why are you debating with me?" Because I can.
"Without a purpose, can there be any such thing as right and wrong?" Yes. But the ability for its determination is evidently beyond your intelligence level.
Diafonía tou apó ágnoia chrisimopoióntas parapaíousa dialektikós simasiología kai psémata.
@ "There is no purpose. The only purpose of life is life. What you make of it is what you make of it."
@ RESPONSE: @ "Well in that case why are you debating with me? Without a purpose,"
SERIOUSLY - Do you even read the posts before you get your panties in a wad and start responding?
@ "Well in that case why are you debating with me? BECAUSE HE CHOOSES TO: Life is what you make it! And most atheists would like to see an end to the idiotic, moronic assertions made by theists.
He is responding to you because you came to an Atheist forum and started talking nonsense.
I am still waiting for you to tell me what the meaning of my life is, so I can tell you to go and "Fuck Off."
THANK YOU! Utterly fabulous.
"Well in that case why are you debating with me? "
Are you being deliberately obtuse, arakish clearly meant life has no ultimate purpose, not that our lives were entirely devoid of meaning. We instil meaning into our lives, hour by hour and day by day. Your doctor analogy misses the point entirely again, how we feel about the universe have no ultimate purpose has no bearing at all on whether the claim is true, and no one can demonstrate any objective evidence for the claim, so who cares whether the fact gives theists the feel good factor they desire.
Illustration of what Sheldon is saying:
Me contemplating the night sky: " The Universe is so beautiful..."
Right before a gamma-ray pulse from a nearby hypernovae vaporizes the Earth...
Atheism doesn't explain anything, it's the absence or lack of belief in a deity or deities, and nothing else. How many times must this be explained to you?
May actually be a lost cause. I just unziped my archive of my responses to royism and counted eight times I alone have told him/her this. Out of all of us regulars, the number could be as high as 80+ times.
As said, probably a lost cause. When one ain't got a brain, it is a bit difficult to make new info stick.
@ Sheldon and Arakish
My statement that atheism does not explain anything was a response to the topic of this thread: what explains reality better, theism or atheism. Please appreciate the context before you jump the gun.
And my answer was in context with the question. Yours is not.
How many times does it have to be repeated to you? Atheism is ONLY a "lack of belief in any gods." Atheism does not explain anything, nor does it attempt to. Your are the one with the misconceptions of forcing your beliefs and definitions where they do not belong. If anyone is jumping the gun, it is you.
The ultimate question should be: What describes reality best, science or religion? And in this case, science wins hands down since ALL religion is nothing more than a bunch of plagiarized myths, legends, and faerie tales created by megalomaniacal psychotic sociopaths who want nothing more than the enslavement of the entire human species to their level of intelligence, or lack thereof.
All we have been doing is answering your nonsensical answers which you derive from the greatest plagiarized collection of faerie tales.
My First Response summed it up best. ANYTHING, including my fantastical delusions, could describe reality better than anything religious.
topic of this thread: what explains reality better, theism or atheism.<"cite>
Modern theism ( unlike primitive animism) is a political movement designed to consolidate political and physical control in a family or class of human society.
That the tales of all major theist religions plagiarize each other is demonstrable. Flying animals (horses). talking animals, mythical worldwide floods,the magic of fire, purification by fire or water, resurrections, are all common threads running through the texts. And as such are all used to entertain the masses while the theocrats enjoy the benefit of their despotism.
Theism does not "explain" reality, it asks its followers to suspend critical examination and blindly follow a set of rules hammered out by the ruling elite, covered in layers of stories.
Atheism makes no claims. Atheism, as explained to you before Royism, is the "lack of belief in a god or gods" that is all.
You, personally are not moral, you are amoral Royism. You obey he commands of your god, and will, if commanded kill for it, or at least stand by, cheering, and hand rocks to those that are killing in the name of your god. That is sickeningly amoral. But that is your position.
The human conscience can be likened to an alarm system; it warns us when we transgress our moral standard. The catch is our conscience is only as good as the moral standard that informs it. If it’s not the Bible, then we inevitably inform our conscience by various other means.
The current reigning “competition to biblical morality in our society is social consensus. In other words, our morality is shaped and changed by the culture around us. It should be easy to see that if social consensus is our moral compass, then we have built our morality on a foundation of shifting sand. Social consensus is just that: a consensus.
And biblical immorality is better?
@ JimM so its moral for you to not only have slaves but to beat them? It is moral to stone your impudent children in front of the town? It is moral to force your daughter to marry her rapist providing he paid you? Biblical "morality" is an ever changing feast of ideas that never catch up with genuine human society, compassion and ethics.
"It should be easy to see that if social consensus is our moral compass, then we have built our morality on a foundation of shifting sand."
Yes, and that is a good thing, that morality can change because of changing social values. One example is slavery, at one time social values did not oppose slavery. But the bible still supports slavery.
Absolutely agree, David!
As our species grows, learns, matures, we see improvements in how we treat each other and all else on the planet. Interestingly, religion’s ‘morality’ does the same thing. It is based on the same ‘shifting sand’ except that they don’t admit that and it is slower to shift.
CyberLN, religion changes it's moral position only when society holds it's feet to the fire and basically forces it to change. A good example is the Roman Catholic position on child abuse. After centuries of passing it off as something casual and to be forgiven, society has now forced the Pope to acknowledge that something bad was happening.
Religion has always been about maintaining the status quo. The dark ages are another good example of that. During that era when religion completely dominated every aspect of society, mankind did not progress, science basically stalled, and scholars mused on how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.
I agree, and in another thousand years or so who knows, the cunts may be paying taxes, and funding stem cell research. I mean what's the rush, poverty and cancer can wait right, just like all those children that have been raped by priests.
Rome wasn't built in a day after all.
Biblical morality is repugnant. All morality, and this includes biblical morality, is "shaped and changed by the culture around" it. Shifting morals can improve, anchoring your morality to the bronze age can't. A social consensus is only one way we form moral concepts, a decent moral society is one that respect and defends the rights of the individual. Nazi Germany had a consensus, and they were overwhelmingly christian as well, 96% according to a meticulous survey conducted in 1939.
Human conscience comes from evolved instincts and learned behaviour. No deity and no supernatural hokum is required to explain it.
It's a specious question that you answered with an erroneous theistic cliche that you have used multiple before. Despite as arakish says being told each time that your claim is spurious nonsense.
No one jumped the gun at all. You're either too dumb to grasp basic word definitions, or are being thoroughly dishonest.
Try and appreciate when the context of the question is specious, before jumping in with the same tired old spurious theistic verbiage.
"The disagreement of the ecclesiastical representation of a sense of sentiment and lie" I like that....
@ROYISM: Your values are the result of years of social conditioning
You mean values don't come from god? That's a surprise.
So what's the purpose of a god? Do you think that gods are also the result of years of social conditioning?
This is more entertaining than my porn site. Every time I think human evolution is moving in the right direction, someone steps up to prove me wrong. I think the human race is doomed and only the Tin Man will survive,,,, along with a few primates.
And Keith Richards, and the cockroaches.
Yea, why not. We got room on the Ark for a few more.
Really? So an athiestic world view which requires the entire universe to be exactly how it is.
Or theism, that requires the same, plus the additions of having the laws of nature and physics suspended when it suits... AND MAGICCCC!!! yaaaay *claps hands*
That's on a par with asking what best explains why large masses attract smaller masses... is it a) gravity? Or is it b) a homeopathic tonic generously drizzled from the sky's above by a cosmic badger.
All hail the mighty badger!
"All hail the mighty badger!"
Things you claimed and asserted, yet fail to explain. Remember how the burden of proof goes? You make claims/assertions, we ask for your evidence of such. However, as always, you obfuscate your claims and assertions in an attempt to switch the burder of proof.
You: That if you need values to live by, you need to have some notion of the purpose of life.
What you claim we are saying: Are you saying you can have values without that? No one here has said that. Prove it, or shut the 7734 up.
You: Can you tell me how science describes the ‘why’ of your existence?
Me: There is no why. There is. Or, there is not.
You: Atheism doesn't explain anything. It just rejects God.
Me: Why MUST you put words in our mouths. You have been told so many times exactly what ATHEISM truly is and still refuse to accept the true fact of what atheism is. You are a fucktard creatard. You are exact proof of the below:
What Absolutists Abdicate and Abandon For Their Faith
You to Cognostic: From what you are saying, morality is a mechanism for better survival of the species.
Me: THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THE ADAGE "STRENGTH FROM NUMBERS" MEANS. How do you think you catch a cold, metaphorically speaking? It is due to Rhinovirus overwhelming your system with NUMBERS! That neutron star is really starting to look light and fluffy (again, thanks Tin-Man).
You: So anything that helps us survive better must be moral.
Me: You almost have it. It is actually those who act within the accepted mores of the group.
You: I can take the logic further and argue that what makes me survive better in this world must be morally right. So, if lying, stealing, murdering etc. help me survive better, then that must be morally right from my perspective.
Me: If that is how you wish to live your life, then so be it. Just do not try to join a group who has the opposite sense of morality.
You: Theologically the purpose of life is to serve God by serving the society and doing good as defined by Him.
Me: I have told you what this is. And it ain't morality. Any mores dictated by a tyrannical dictator are nothing more than enforced edicts.
Cognostic: Any atheist on the street is more of a moral being than a theist. When atheists are nice or behave morally with regards to others, it is because they are nice moral people. Not because they are afraid of your boogieman god and not because they are trying to earn their way into a lifetime of cake and ice cream. Theologies inhibit actual moral behavior.
Very well said and an exact rewording of an Einstein quote: "If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."
You: Do you mean to say that you don’t consider the universe to revolve around you?
Me: Of course the universe does not revolve around me. It is expanding around me.
You: What I am trying to prove i.e. that science can’t answer ‘why’ questions.
Me: Boy, that neutron star is getting lighter and fluffier. NO ONE CAN ANSWER "WHY?" It is the unasnwerable question because no matter your Creatard mind can say, I can still always ask, "Why?" Reiteration: NO ONE CAN ANSWER "WHY?" Especially not you Religious Absolutists. All y'all can do is to dictate tyranny.
You: Because subjective things are based on personal feelings, tastes and opinions and not something that can be established using external factors or commonly acceptable standards.
Me: Actually subjective mores ALSO include "external factors or commonly acceptable standards."
You: But how can you argue that your belief is more correct than my belief.
Me: 7734, my delusional fantasies are more correct than your beliefs from your version of The Desert-Dwelling Goat Herders' Guide to the Universe, Life, and Everything.
You: Is there any standard with which to measure your morality so then I can adopt your views as well?
Me: Yes. Just ask this question, "Will my action, or its inaction, cause harm to another person?"
You: What you need to do is show me on what grounds you think human sacrifice is immoral or wrong, instead of issuing threats to a hypothetical question that I raised.
Me: "Will my action, or inaction, cause harm to another person?" In the case of anyone attempting to perform a human sacrifice, I'd immediately use the Machiavellian idea, the means would justify the end. I'd be saving the life of an innocent, while sacrificing the life of a murderer. Gia parádeigma: If I saw you getting ready to stab someone with a dagger and I had a gun, I would not hesitate to put bullet into you.
You: What is your position on animal slaughter for food? If you eat animals, why is that any less a sin than killing a human?
Me: The same reason I go bow hunting for a deer. A change in the meat I consume. Any person who kills anything just for the sport is as evil as any Religious Absolutist. And I derive that from the fact of the simplest summation of all absolute religions, including your pathetic Islam: "You are to live in peace, love, and brotherhood, but only with those of like mind (same beliefs system). All others are to be put to sword (killed)."
You: Why is human life more valuable than animal life, but for the simple selfish reason of human centricity?
Me: Some human lives are more valuable than animal life. Some are not.
OK. I have grown weary of skimming this thread. Let me close...
And you have proven to suffer from a mental disorder I call RSTD (Religious Stigmatic Traumatized Disorder). Very similar to PTSD whick combines many mental disorders into one. And I guaratee when Breezy Brain sees this, he will go bat-shit crazy.
Religious Mental Disorders
Or, Mental Disorders Caused by Absolutist Religious Indoctrination
If a person cannot suffer from two different disorders such as narcissism and inferiority, then please explain how Bipolarism ever came about as a single disorder. What exactly is Bipolarism? Although there are more than one basic type of Bipolarism, all are characterized by a brain disorder that causes unusual shifts in mood, activity, energy, thoughts, and the ability to carry out daily tasks. It is also known as Manic–Depressive Disorder. Before it ever got called bipolar disorder or manic–depressive disorder, here was a disorder that looked to be two different disorders that are diametrically opposed. One could be called Major Depressive Disorder. The other Major Manic Disorder. However, through extensive and intensive studies, it was categorized as a single disorder.
Now, reiterating, look at Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. When looking at ALL possible symptoms of PTSD, you will find the symptoms of many other disorders, some diametrically opposed to others. Again, here is the list in a more cognitive method.
The substance abuse is usually not a part of PTSD and comes about from having PTSD. However, most psychiatrists and therapists and psychology professors I have talked with, tend to include it in with the PTSD. That is five (not counting the last) major disorders rolled into one gigantic miasma of corrupted mental fugues.
Pause and think about that. One single disorder that may have the symptoms of FIVE major disorders. One.
And you say a person cannot suffer from narcissistic personality while also suffering inferiority complex. They can if they have the mind set to become an inexorable religious believer. Such persons do suffer from the combination of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Schizophrenic Delusion Disorder, and Inferiority Complex Disorder. Additionally, you can throw in Dissociative Disorder in there as well.
Now let’s discuss how this can happen. Although they may not suffer true mental disorders, the mindset of an inexorable believer definitely imitates them rather well.
********** Inferiority Complex **********
Simple, the ideology of Original Sin and Man’s Downfall. Islam just does it differently. They teach children they are worthless without Allah. That is the main culprit for the cause of inferiority. However, there are also many additional lessons in the indoctrination process that further drive this disorder into the mind of children. Religious Absolutists teach their children, that they are worthless scum unless they believe in an imaginary Sky Faerie and Magic Zombie Virgin to forgive them. They are taught that the act that brought them into this world is ultimately an act of evil/sin. They cannot ever hope of achieving a nonexistent afterlife without believing in a Sky Faerie who sacrificed himself, to himself, to save his creation, from his own damnation and wrath. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. Beat your children down. Teach them they are inferior to all other humans, unless they believe in the imaginary Sky Faerie and Magic Zombie Virgin. And the worst of all is to teach them that they were born from an act of evil/sin, born of evil/sin, born in evil/sin, AND born evil/sinful. And that they are condemned to die and burn in Hell forever unless they believe as you tell them to believe and to behave, live, act, and think as you command them. Now tell me that is not child abuse through psychological terrorism.
You Absolutists usually begin the training from early childhood through a controlled, systematic, totalitarian indoctrination process which utilizes mental rape, emotional molestation, and psychological terrorism when a child’s mind, especially in the ages of 4 to 14 years, is at its most susceptible and most vulnerable to cultural conditioning. Tyrannically dictated norms of fidelity are imposed such that children are trained to vomit conflicting ideas and to never consider their veracity. I know this for fact because it is the ghastly, abhorrent, and terrifying nightmare I endured as a child for seven years.
You Absolutists are trained to react to ideas, and to reject them no matter what you are told, presented, and/or taught. You are taught to never question your beliefs. You are militantly trained to maintain and preserve the faith. And, due to this designed abusive training and indoctrination process, you shall do so with apologetics, beguiling dialectical semantics, distorted and perverted data, emotional whiny–ass pleas, and sometimes divinely–inspired violence. Worst of all, your conditioning is so ingrained that you never question why you need to defend your belief at all. This form of indoctrination, no matter its intended outcome, is actually “child abuse” in the form of psychological terrorism. All of which is immoral in any moral landscape. However, due to the First Amendment, religion gets a free ride to practice all the immorality they wish. One only has to prove it is religious to prove it is not immoral.
An indoctrination process which teaches you to never think for yourself, but to close your mind against all things except for what some sky–faerie in an obsolete and irrelevant and barbaric and savagely immoral Bronze Age religious text commands you to think. For me, that is the most heinous of acts, especially to do it to children. And no matter whatever you may say to the contrary, this is child abuse. Ask Richard Dawkins.
And it is from this indignant training from whence comes the Inferiority Complex Disorder.
********** Narcissistic Personality **********
Boy, the perfect examples here are William Lane Craig, Pat Robertson, The Discovery Institute (the whole lot), Ken Ham, Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, amongst many, many, many, many others. And my favorite one to pick on. Oral Roberts. He got on national TV and pretended to cry like a baby saying God was going to take him home unless he raised eight million dollars. And he had a backer in his back pocket who waited in the wings to make sure it was at least eight million dollars just in case. Now that is narcissism.
Kenneth Copeland and Oral Roberts Brag About Being RICH
Kenneth Copeland boasts he is a billionaire
15 RICHEST PASTORS IN AMERICA: Is The Love of Money Destroying Christianity from Within?
I can hear you Religious Absolutists. "What is wrong with God making one of his Pastor's rich?" When he rapes those riches from the poor who actually cannot afford it. That is what is wrong with it.
Then look at how many mega–churches there are. The Crystal Cathedral is the first one I remember as a young adult. My first thought was (exact verbatim), “Why does any God-Damned church need to be that narcissistic?” And how many mega–churches have been built or refurbished from purchased buildings since then.
Just look at these images:
Lakewood Church was the church where that asshole Joel Osteen (pictured on that gigantic monitor) would not open the doors to provide shelter for hurricane victims. He did eventually open the doors two days later after receiving probably the greatest WWW poo poo for being an such a conceited asshole. The trouble started on Sunday after a social media posting from the megachurch saying, “Lakewood Church is inaccessible due to severe flooding!” However, a local TV news team went to the church, on that same Sunday, filming, and showing the church was NOT flooded, and no church personnel were even there. What a sorry ass.
And then these videos:
10 Largest Mega Churches in the US
10 Largest Mega Churches in the World
And when your leaders become so damned narcissistic, you sheep follow right behind. I mean look at the size of that main screen at Lakewood Church. Why in Hell does any church need something that narcissistic? Why does its Pastor need something that narcissistic?
However, it is when the child finally capitulates to the abusive and repugnant and cruel indoctrination tactics and becomes a full blown believer, is when the Absolutists will also begin the reverse tactic of teaching them they are better than all the other unbelievers since they believe in the ONLY TRUE GOD and all others are going to burn in Hell forever. This is where the narcissism ultimately comes from. Then as their lives seem to do nothing but get better and better (for most do anyway), the more narcissistic the Absolutist becomes.
********** Schizophrenic Delusion **********
Also read “The Noahacian Flood Story” and “The Exodus That Went Nowhere” essays.
I have spent 20 years researching the veracity of the Bible covering a 30 year period. And this was done on top of my college studies and employment, mainly during vacations. The only thing I found is that the Bible is an anthology of collected and plagiarized myths and legends that are actually far older than the Bible itself.
And here is one fact I have discovered. Why does the oldest version of the Bible written in Hebrew only dates back to circa 450 BCE? And the oldest completed versions of the Bible, Old and New Testaments, only dates back to circa 650 CE.
For anyone to believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God when there is absolutely no hard empirical evidence that anything in the Bible is true, is a schizophrenic delusion. I saw this meme written in book somewhere, perhaps The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins:
When one person suffers from delusion, it is called insanity.
When many persons suffer from delusion, it is called religion.
********** Dissociative Delusion **********
I ain’t got much to say about this one. Just watch these videos. What I will say, what kind of moron does it take to act like they are suffering from epilepsy?
And if you say these ain’t mental disorders... I have seen videos of Muslims also acting the same kind of fool.
RSTD (Religious Stigmatic Traumatized Disorder).
That is what I call all the above mental disorders rolled into one. Much like PTSD has five, RSTD has four. ‘Nuff said.
I shall be the first to admit this is not an official mental disorder. However, the two psychology professors I had in college are actually looking into doing a study to later write a science journal paper about its possiblity. Also realize this is a totally different disorder that the RTS (Religious Trauma Syndrome) disorder, which comes about from persons who leave their religious cult.
And if you refuse to believe any religion is actually a cult, then compare it to the BITE model. And I mean do an honest assessment, which of course you Religious Absolutists are incapable of doing.
And a final summation:
********** Who Sends Who To Hell? **********
This is from a Matt Dillahunty debate. Forget which one, but I did partially transcribe it.
I do not remember if the Qu’ran says the same, but I do know the Christians always preach that it is NOT their God who sends people to Hell, but it is the people who choose to go to Hell. I think you Religious Absolutists are so full of bullshit, that that is the reason why you cannot smell the stench of what you preach. However, I beg to differ that is the people who choose to send themselves to Hell.
Is God responsible for the creation of the universe?
Is God responsible for the creation of the heavens?
Is God responsible for the creation of the Earth?
Is God responsible for the creation of Heaven?
Is God responsible for the creation of Hell?
Is there nothing that occurs without the will of God?
Is God responsible for the criteria (rules) of who shall go to Heaven or Hell?
If the answer you gave for all the questions above is “Yes,” then, it IS your God who is ultimately responsible for those it chooses to send to Hell. Anyone who forces criteria as to who gets saved and who gets damned is the same who is responsible. Forcing such criteria no longer allows the freedom of choice.
Whooahh... @arakish, it was like you pushed a red button.