What evidence will you accept?

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LogicFTW's picture
@Calilasseia

@Calilasseia

Wow I hope we get answers like that within my lifetime.

Something to really look forward to.

Admittedly I also look forward to how the various religions in the world try to squirm their way out of that one. It should be like an adult trying to explain exactly how Santa works to a crying kid.

Ramo Mpq's picture
I suspect I may be pleasantly

I suspect I may be pleasantly surprised, and have the evidence to hand with respect to the actual "creator" of the universe within my lifetime.

That would be awesome but, until we get that evidence, what is your current “belief” (or whatever word you want to use)? If its i dont know then also also fine just wondering if its something other than that.

Calilasseia's picture
That would be awesome but,

That would be awesome but, until we get that evidence, what is your current “belief” (or whatever word you want to use)?

Wee first of all, one of the elementary concepts I keep expounding, here and elsewhere, is that the word "belief" does not belong in rigorous discourse full stop. The reason being that we have a large body of observational evidence, pointing to the fact that belief, certainly as practised b supernaturalists, consists of nothing more than uncritical acceptance of unsupported assertions. Which is diametrically opposed to the proper rules of discourse, about which I have expounded much both here and elsewhere.

Quite simply, the moment one has evidence to support a given postulate, belief becomes superfluous to requirements and irrelevant.

Meanwhile, with respect to the origin of the universe, my view is that while we do not yet enjoy the emergence of an evidentially supported postulate on this matter, past precedent makes it increasingly likely that the answer will be found in testable natural processes. Courtesy of the fact that testable natural processes have been determined to be sufficient to explain ever larger classes of entities and phenomena, as science progresses. The universe would be throwing us a curve ball of truly cosmic dimensions, if that precedent was overturned in this instance.

If its i dont know then also also fine just wondering if its something other than that.

The simple answer is indeed, at the moment, I don't know. But what I do know, is that whenever scientists have formulated postulates in the past, we haven't had to wait very long before someone devises a means of testing those postulates, and determining conclusively whether or not said postulates are in accord with observational data. The scientific method has been singularly reliable in this respect. Whenever science has been called upon to deliver the goods, deliver it has, by the supertanker load. Mythologies and their assertions, on the other hand, have been singularly unreliable at delivering the goods, even with respect to those assertions that are found to be testable. I am aware of mythological assertions that are not merely plain, flat, wrong, but absurd and fatuous in the light of modern knowledge. The idea that said assertions were the product of a fantastically gifted entity, responsible for fabricating an entire universe from scratch, is a complete non-starter. Any entity genuinely possessing such gifts, would have known that these assertions were ridiculous, and taken robust steps to eliminate them from any text it had control over.

One cannot even erect the excuse that these assertions constitute some form of simplification of the actual state of affairs, permitting basic comprehension thereof by readers with a limited factual repertoire. If that were the case, the assertions in question would be facile, but not essentially wrong. Instead, the assertions that persist in various mythologies, purporting to describe what can be considered scientific or historical fact, are in some cases so ludicrous, that they do not even rise to the level of competence required to be properly wrong.

That last point requires expansion, in order to place it on a properly robust footing. An error, whilst being an error, can be categorised as a competent error, if some effort was exerted to try and construct the resulting erroneous statement, to be in accord either with observation or appropriate past deduction. Students of pure mathematics or the physical sciences commit many such errors during their learning process, but those errors arose against a background of successful prior acquisition of relevant concepts. Those students stumbled at a particular hurdle because they had not yet mastered a new concept, or had committed a simple error in a stepwise process of deduction that compromised the whole. On the other hand, an error arising from outright fabrication, with no traceable attempt to subject said fabrication to observational or deductive constraints, can be classed as an incompetent error. Mythologies are replete with this latter category of error: ex recto fabrications that made no attempt to ground themselves in the world of real observables or properly constituted abstract deduction.

Errors of this sort cannot possibly be considered to be simplifications of the actual postulates operating in the universe, pretty much by definition, and apologetic attempts to categorise them in this manner are doomed to failure from the start. Any genuinely fantastically gifted entity, responsible for presenting a body of text intended to be treated as factual, would banish such fabrications, along with competent errors, wholesale from that body of text. This has clearly not happened. The assertion that those bodies of text, those mythologies, are the product of fantastically gifted "creators" of one sort or another, is untenable on this elementary basis alone, before we consider any other objections. If humans, exerting diligent effort, can make comprehensible such daunting concepts as Calabi-Yau manifolds, then this exercise should be easily within the remit of any genuinely existing fantastically gifted entities of the sort asserted to exist in mythologies. The absence of proper proofreading and proper elimination of nonsense, alone destroys any pretence that the requisite mythologies deserve to be considered as bodies of "knowledge".

On the basis of that contrast, between the demonstrable reliability of scientific endeavour, and the demonstrable unreliability of mythological assertion, the reason for my choice should be obvious on the most elementary level.

Tin-Man's picture
@Cali

@Cali

...*incoming fan mail*... I truly love the fact I can read your posts and follow them and easily understand what you are saying. I have to admit, though, I am just a tad bit jealous of your vocabulary... *chuckle*... (Oh, and another great job, by the way...*thumbs up*...)

arakish's picture
@ NOT searching for truth

@ NOT searching for truth

Forget about me boy?

@ NOT Searching for truth

Sheldon’s Questions You Dodge

  1. If your magic book is inerrant, why is so much effort invested to silence or kill its critics?
  2. Is it ever moral to kill non Muslims?
  3. Is it ever moral for 50+ year old man to have sex with a nine year old child?
  4. Is it ever moral for 50+ year old man to rape a nine year old child?
  5. What is the penalty for apostasy in Islam?
  6. Do you believe a horse could ever fly?
  7. Do you believe you will get 72 female virgins replenished daily when you die?
  8. What evidence can you demonstrate to support your belief that a deity exists?

All you ever do is dodge these question because of two reasons:

  1. You violate your own “research” directives, or
  2. You already know the answers and are afraid to admit the truth.

So much for “searching for truth” when you are too afraid of it.

And to answer your question: What evidence would you accept.

Answer: None from you.

rmfr

Cognostic's picture
@SFT - Have your god pop down

@SFT - Have your god pop down for lunch one day and impress us all with some miracles. It won't separate him from an intelligent advances species of alien but at least you can clearly identify the thing you are worshiping.

You could begin by belonging to a religion that has some sort of consistency. Islam is a joke. You make so many assertions that are just blatantly wrong and demonstrably so. It makes believers look ignorant. It is not the lack of evidence as much as it is the blatant lies being told by the religion. Just like it's predecessor, whose gospel it stole, it also stole the ability to fabricate stories and lie to the ignorant. So Evidence could begin with a "CLEAR AND HONEST STORY." At least then, you would have a foundation for trust.

Grinseed's picture
I have no need to ask for any

I have no need to ask for any special proof or evidence for a creator of the universe in the first place.
And I have found no sufficient reason to believe any offered by theists.

In my continuing and never-to-be-completed search for truth, I have found satisfaction in accepting totally natural explanations for everything in the world. And while it is true I may never fully understand some events and happenings (the intricate biochemistry related to evolution, the Nasca Lines, the workings of gravity at close proximities, the complexities of human perception, the duality of light or anything quantum, etc) there is a sense of completeness in accepting everything in this cosmos being explained by the physical forces and elements within it.
I see no need for proof or evidence for a god, or the supernatural, in making sense of this reality.

Hypothesising about intangible forces 'outside time and space', or anywhere else, is simply not necessary, and to suggest these unsubstantiated influences exercise any sort of dominion over anything in the universe is mere mythology.

Such exercises are like historical 'what if' scenarios, which I also find tediously pointless. "What if the Nazi's had won the Battle of Britain and had successfully invaded and taken over the island kingdom?"
Well, they didn't, and as entertaining as the resulting hypothetical tales might be, even based on the documented German preparations for such an eventuality, the actual history of the resistance of the British and the failure of the Nazis, makes a far more compelling story, replete with real meaning and significance, besides forming part of the basis of our political reality today.
"What if there is a omnipotent conscious being outside time and space who created us all and is judging all we do?" is the kind of question that produces countless more pointless questions than any one person could ever find meaningful answers for in several lifetimes.
Hitler had more chances of taking up residence in Buckingham Palace.

David Killens's picture
I am just looking for a good

I am just looking for a good start. Theists make many claims, I would like to see just one come true. God performs miracles? Great, show me some amputees' lost limb grown back to 100% size and functionality.

That should be really easy for any god, and darn impressive to me.

Sheldon's picture
You don't get to breeze in as

Your question's been answered innumerable times, it won't ever change, it remains 'sufficient objective evidence be demonstrate that is commensurate to the claim,' and it applies to all claims.

You don't get to breeze in as if you haven't tried these dishonest tactics to reverse the burden of truth already, and been called on it. This includes your unevidenced assertion that morality is only possible through your religious beliefs, yet you refuse to tell us if it is ever moral for a 50 year old man to have sex with a nine year old child?

Until you answer that question with some shred of integrity, and demonstrate some objective evidence for your deity, no one is obliged to guess at hypothetical evidence so you can pretend its atheists who are being unreasonable by setting too high a bar for evidence.

This is nonsense sorry, and we've seen too many theists dishonestly try this tactic, and seen you too often and for far too long use evasion that amounts to duplicity, and make sneering ad hominem comments like your "a lion doesn't concern itself with the opinion of sheep" comment.

Do theists think atheist suffer from amnesia? Also this is a debate forum, so trying to dictate to atheists that the thread is not meant to be argumentative is pretty absurd. If you don't want argument then don't come to a debate forum. As all you're doing again is trying to ring fence your superstitious beliefs from proper critical comment.

What is the penalty for apostasy in Islam?

What does your religion claim will happen to gay people?

If your Koran is the immutable perfect word of a deity why do so many Muslims throughout the world expend so much time and energy suppressing criticisms of it?

Is it EVER morally right for a man in his 50's to have sex with a child of 9?

If you want to discuss your beliefs on here, you will have to accept that everyone has the right to post whatever they are minded to.

Sapporo's picture
There is no evidence I would

There is no evidence I would accept.

It is impossible to falsify the notion that reality had a creator. If you produced a "creator", it would not be possible to say that the "creator" had no creator of their own.

The practical reality of the phenomenal world is as follows:
"In nature nothing is created, nothing is lost, everything is transformed." - Antoine Lavoisier

For an uncreated creator to be true, we would have to exist in an isolated system in which it is impossible to determine the conditions outside it. Ultimately, there is no reason to favor the notion that the universe had a creator over the notion that the universe created itself or that it is timeless with no creator.

Sheldon's picture
"what evidence will you

"what evidence will you accept to at least consider that there is something out there that created this universe? I don’t care if you want to call it "

Same as any other claim, that sufficient objective evidence be demonstrated commensurate to the claim.

Now why won't you tell us if you think it is ever morally right for a 50 year old man to have sex with a nine year old child?

Cognostic's picture
The question itself is a

The question itself is a "Shifting of the burden of proof." The person making the positive claim has the burden of proof. If this were not the case, the flying spaghetti monster, blue universe creating bunnies, Thor, Zeus, all the gods from the Odyssey, ancient Babylon, Sumeria, China, and the rest of the world are all EXACTLY LIKE YOUR GOD. YOU CAN NOT PROVE THEY DO NOT EXIST.

The default position is to simply not believe a claim until it has been proved to be true. Even then, all belief is allocated concordant with the evidence provided.
i.e. There might possibly be a big foot someplace, but with all the frauds and no evidence other than a footprint or some forest sounds which humans can easily make... There just isn't anything there. No real reason to believe. But it would be really cool if one was found. Think about it. There is more evidence for Big Foot than there is for God.

Ramo Mpq's picture
The question itself is a

The question itself is a "Shifting of the burden of proof.".

On the contrary my monkey friend. I am not burdening anyone to provide any proof simply asking a question. If you answer is an interesting one, I might as you to please explain not “please prove it”. Big difference.

arakish's picture
@ NOT searching for truth

@ NOT searching for truth

Yet, you are still acting like the little wishy-washy panty waste.

Yes. You are shifting the burden of proof.

Are you ever going to answer the questions you know you cannot answer without proving your pathetic Islamic terrorism is just that?

rmfr

David Killens's picture
The problem Searching for

The problem Searching for truth, is that you indicate you prefer nice stories that please you. Unfortunately, the real world and truth may not be so nice and deliver a story that agrees with you.

And for many atheists, demanding proof is a method towards finding the truth.

Cognostic's picture
On the contrary - THE

On the contrary - THE QUESTION IS ATTEMPTING TO SHIFT THE BURDEN OF PROOF BY ASKING "WHAT EVIDENCE WOULD YOU ACCEPT." THAT IS SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF. It is not up to anyone to accept evidence. Facts and evidence ARE facts and evidence. They are demonstrable and undeniable. If I am 6ft tall, no amount of ignorant assertion to the contrary will change that. This is a manipulative attempt to get others to define your evidence. IT IS NOT OUR JOB. It is your job to present the evidence you have for evaluation. Can it stand against critical inquiry? So what evidence is acceptable? Evidence that can withstand critical inquiry. You got any of that. We would love to see it.

Cognostic's picture
What do you not understand.

What do you not understand. IT IS NOT OUR JOB TO DO YOUR WORK FOR YOU. When you come up with something that can withstand critical inquiry let us know. NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL. Either put up or shut up. THE DEFAULT POSITION IS TO NOT BELIEVE A CLAIM UNTIL THERE IS SUFFICIENT PROOF. It's not our fault that you keep coming up empty.

Sheldon's picture
@SFT

@SFT

Yet you refuse to answer questions, even ones pertaining to claims you have made about your religion. Do you think we won't notice the dishonesty of such evasion?

If as you claimed objective morality is possibly (only) through your religion, is it ever morally right for a 50+ year old man to have sex with a nine year old child? If not then how can something you think is immoral now have been moral then if your religion provide's objective morality? Did your most revered prophet not understand the objective morality you claims your religion provides?

Or are you refusing to give an honest answer because you think it IS moral for adults to have sex with children as young as none years old?

What objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity?

Indeed, can you demonstrate any evidence?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Searching for truth - what

Searching for truth - what evidence will you accept to at least consider that there is something out there that created this universe?

It is a tough question to answer.

For starters your question seems to imply that the universe didn't exist, then it did. If we pretend for a moment that is true, it is difficult to even imagine how evidence of that "truth" could exist. Presumably this evidence would consist of some piece(s) of information, but all information is stored physically. How could this information (evidence) that the universe didn't exist have been stored physically when the universe didn't exist?

So even if everything you believe is true, I'm skeptical that it would be possible to present any evidence for it; so it is very hard for me to even imagine what this evidence would look like.

Ramo Mpq's picture
@Nayar

@Nayar

Thank you for your honest answer.

Cognostic's picture
If there was any real

If there was any real evidence for your god, don't you think someone would have presented it by now? Don't you think there would be a realistic answer that we could all agree on? Don't you think, if God wrote a book it would not be full of lies and supported by a religion full of lies? If you were a god and you were sitting around watching children starve to death, watching women getting raped, watching murders, watching children born with deformities, and all you had to do was wiggle you little finger to change things; to stop a rape, to save a child, to feed a village, to correct a deformity. "Would you do it?"

Why are you so much more moral that the God you worship?

Sky Pilot's picture
Cognostic,

delete

Cognostic's picture
Fine - Your god does none of

Fine - Your god does none of those things. Men save children, prevent rapes, and stop murders - when does your god's trip of the universe begin, sign me up/.

Up To My Neck's picture
@Dio

@Dio
You are right, these things do happen, but I believe what Cog was implying is that those things shouldn’t happen at all. The folks saved as you described were lucky enough to have someone nearby who could help. Children are molested everyday, and die of preventable disease everyday.

Ramo Mpq's picture
If there was any real

If there was any real evidence for your god, don't you think someone would have presented it by now?

It has been presented many times and has been constantly rejected which is why I am asking people what evidence they would be willing to accept or at least consider.

Don't you think there would be a realistic answer that we could all agree on?

This will only happen if both sides agreed to an “objective” standard in which they can measure their claims, logic and rational by.

Let me asking this question, monkey friend. Do you reject/deny the existence of god or is your official stance “I don’t know if one exists”? The reason I ask because if you reject then you have your “evidence” or criteria to reject, if you don’t know then you just don’t know. Don’t worry I won’t ask you for your evidence if you said you reject god lol.

arakish's picture
@ NOT searching for truth

@ NOT searching for truth

Admins/Mods: I know I throw in some ad hominem phrases, but they are the true truth, unlike anything NOT searching for truth posts. It is about time we truly call a spade what it is.

Cognostic: “If there was any real evidence for your god, don't you think someone would have presented it by now?

Nsft: “It has been presented many times and has been constantly rejected which is why I am asking people what evidence they would be willing to accept or at least consider.

You have never, ever, offered even a speck of evidence. [Challenge deleted by Mod]

Cognostic: “Don't you think there would be a realistic answer that we could all agree on?

Nsft: “This will only happen if both sides agreed to an “objective” standard in which they can measure their claims, logic and rational by.

There is no agreement between "both" sides on objective hard empirical evidence, for there is only ONE, and ONLY one, standard for objective hard empirical evidence. If you are incapable of figuring out what that standard is, then you need to attend a secular university, specifically into a physical sicence degree, in order to learn what that only ONE, and ONLY one, standard for objective hard empirical evidence is.

Come back in twenty years once you have earned that Baccalaureate.

Nsft: “Do you reject/deny the existence of god or is your official stance “I don’t know if one exists”? The reason I ask because if you reject then you have your “evidence” or criteria to reject, if you don’t know then you just don’t know. Don’t worry I won’t ask you for your evidence if you said you reject god lol.

Here is my answer. Hell, fucking yes! I do reject any and all existence of any and all gods. Your homosexual prophet can just go have fun with your homosexual allah. Proof your unholy prophet was homosexual? He was so pathetic he could not get any except by raping a nine year old girl.

rmfr

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ SfT

@ SfT

It has been presented many times and has been constantly rejected which is why I am asking people what evidence they would be willing to accept or at least consider.

Sft, you have NEVER presented any evidence for the existence of any deity. let alone the one you espouse.
Let me refresh your memory:
You cannot "logic" your way to proving a god.
A holy book is only evidence that the claim exists. It is not evidence in or of itself for the existence of the alleged god. That has been shown to you many times.

As those are the only things you have brought forward then we must conclude the statement in blockquotes is a lie.

Please answer Sheldon's questions. Then we may judge the value of your alleged deity.

Ramo Mpq's picture
@oldman

@oldman

So instead of answering what you’ll accept as evidence you’re asking to bring forward evidence? Sounds like a waste of time. No thanks. Answer if you want then maybe we can meet in the middle otherwise, no use of wasting time.

Tin-Man's picture
...*scratching head in

...*scratching head in confusion*.... Dang, that is just weird... *scrolling through Google search results*.... Hmmm... Yep, just as I thought. I KNEW I didn't recall ever seeing the Hulk in any of The Matrix movies. Nevertheless, though, from what I have seen on here so far, it would appear the Hulk could certainly teach Neo a thing or two about dodging stuff. Pretty fucking impressive... *long slow whistle*...

Cognostic's picture
@Searching for truth: Asked

@Searching for truth: Asked and Answered - I will accept evidence that meets your burden of proof and can stand against critical inquiry. Ball is in your court .... lets hear what you got.

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