So, I can think of no time I'd prefer a uterus be emptied. However, the right to choose is important, and I have no problem with painless fetal termination. In my view, an unwanted pregnancy is nobody else's business. But when someone brings up sanctity of life, it gives me pause. Because how can a redneck murder a doctor and torch a nurse's car and hold a sign preaching sanctity of life? How can meat eaters talk about sanctity of life? How can you talk about that when your party opposes ALL programs that promote life? No welfare, healthcare, schools, unemployment, disabilities, veteran services, school lunches, etc. No life for anyone but fetuses. Doesn't seem like what Jesus would do. What are your thoughts?
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It's tied into their obsession with sex. They think sex is ONLY for procreation. Also, the only way we can naturally procreate is a sin to them. They want it just as bad as any good heathen though. With such a conflict of integrity, how can they truly enjoy sex without feeling guilty? Hmmm I know.
They try to push themselves into other peoples sex lives and tell them that sex cannot be had for the purpose of pleasure. What justifies this claim? Well.. now we have their problem with Birth control. Yeah birth control to them is an enabler of that damn sin. sex.
They don't want birth control. Yet when people have sex without it, pregnancy can occur, of course. When it does, the would be parents may not have been ready for it, but that is of no consequence to the religious person. They think that You must deal with the consequences of your sin of lust and it is justified by the claim that abortion = Murder.
These guys think that they're saving the life of an embryo that is not even conscious as yet. Born as yet. Unaware of anything. they don't think about the abject life that baby will likely be born into. A life that the parents are trying to avoid throwing that kid into.
Doesn't matter to the religious person though. If they can't do something, neither can the rest of us. This is the product of their hypocritical and erroneous beliefs. This obsession with sex and other peoples affairs are the result of their archaic, outdated, antiquated & belated Religions.
OP:
So, I can think of no time I'd prefer a uterus be emptied.
That's one of the weirdest sentences I've ever read. wtf?
As for the rest, everyone born is grist for the war mill. Gotta keep 'em coming! And hell, they don't need to make it much past 18 to be of use. Many die, but many more are born.
Wording is weird, sorry. I mean to say I don't approve of abortion without reasonable cause like complications of pregnancy, rape conception, or congenital disease. Plain avoidance of birth control however, is just stupid. Use a god damn condom.
Jared, your approval is not required. An individual has full authority over their own body. You do, I do and everyone does. If a person has an abortion it is entirely that person's choice. Other's approval or disapproval is not relevant.
@Jared Alesi: First, Jesus doesn't exist today and the slightest proofs that he ever existed shine by their absence. Second, they refer to the sanctity of HUMAN life, and, although they're mistaken in their definition in relation to the nasciturus -for that we have the science and laws based on it-, and the right of the woman to do what she thinks fit with her body, they're right: There're three things that seem repugnant to us in our genetic collection and that haven't to do with the culture: Incest, cannibalism and murder. It's evident that we can break these taboos if circumstances compel us to do so, but, if we're mentally healthy people, it would have to be something extreme. Thirdly, a believer is by definition a fanatic, believes in things that aren't real and, as soon as you prove are false, then they will be enroached in what they call faith... and they will come to call you blasphemous and want you to respect their falsehoods... imprisoning, torturing and condemning you to death... If left to them.
You're trying to rationalize something that has nothing to do with reason. It's like you don't eat meat: You know it's bad for health, that vegetable proteins are worse off than animals, that the lack of fast-absorbing proteins, Vitamin B12, Calcium, Vitamin D, affects your brain, your digestive system, your nervous and endocrine system, but you keep doing it because BELIVE that an animal doesn't deserve that you eat it... any other omnivore can do, of course, but you know AREN'T an animal, you're better, you're human, then you must sanctify your sanctity as a sentient being not eating other sentient beings what, by the way, would not hesitate to eat you in case of hunger, like the pig, cat, dog, rat.
The belief above the evidence... faith... Do you understand the stupidity involved?
Am I saying that anyone should not have their beliefs about anything determined? Of course not. Everyone is free to believe what they want to believe, but try to impose their beliefs on the rest of human beings with the excuse of improving their lives if they believe too, whether by repeated lies over and over again, Imposed ignorance, or a bombs, It's disgusting.
P.S.
I don't pretend to disrespect you, as human being. Beliefs don't deserve respect. Any.
For the record, I love meat. I was using an example against sanctity of life. Personally, I don't think life is sacred. The goal of physics was not to create life. Life is a byproduct of chemistry, nothing more, nothing less. I won't kill a person or animal without reasonable cause, but I have no problem with meat. Additionally, if life is so sacred, why not plant life? You kill vegetables and fruit when you harvest. The only food you can eat that doesn't require death is honey and unfertilized eggs. That would get boring eventually, no?
A lot, really a lot.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AvF1Q3UidWM
Gotta love Carlin.
If you don't own your own body, then it is impossible to own anything. It is literally the most fundamental right, the right to not be a slave.
The basic reason why theists are against abortion is that:
(a): There is a difference between the woman's body and what is INSIDE the woman's body.
(b): The baby is alive no matter whether it is inside or outside the body.
I assume by your party, you are talking about republicans, religious conservatives and the extreme right. They only care where you put your penis and they want you to keep that baby, no matter if it was from rape or will be disfigured, incest, etc.
It is an issue that if they keep beating the drum long enough it will almost make it seem like they are right.
It disgusts me that the right wing and of course religious people, especially evangelicals demand that you keep your baby. However when it is born, let that little slacker get right to work, and if you cannot feed it, tough! If the pregnancy were dangerous to the mother, well let her die they say!
Just mass brainwashing from people who think they know what is best for other's. Just think if Hitler or trump would have been aborted! Life is not always that beautiful choice. Is it?
I thought it was summed up pretty well on the TV show "Veep":
You're right and Veep is right. Men don't expect and won't allow someone to tell them what to do with their bodies, but many men feel within their rights to tell women what they can do with their bodies. It is an obscene holdover from our patriarchal past and the vile idea that women are cursed due to Eve's offense in the garden. It is unbearably stupid, yet we are subjected to it every time abortion is discussed.
Jared, this ongoing feud over abortion helps to answer your original question about religious people and abortion. From this single thread we have uncovered some of the reasons why religious people go ape shit over abortion. Here is a cursory list:
1. Religious people think women shouldn't have sex if they don't want a baby.
2. Religious people can force a woman to serve as a baby incubator against her will.
3. In cases of rape or disease, religious people might let the victim control her own body.
4. Religious people compare a drunk driver killing people with a car to a woman having an abortion.
5. When religious people here "choice", they argue that they also have a choice not to allow the woman to have a choice.
6. Religious people don't care if a condom was used. If the condom breaks, you're fucked (so to speak).
7. Religious people think that zygotes and fetuses are the same as adults. They think it's all semantics. They took theology courses in college and skipped out of life sciences like biology and zoology and anatomy and physiology.
7. Religious people will shoot a gorilla and enslave women to protect a microscopic zygote. (Don't shoot the messenger)
8. Since killing in war is okay and police shooting criminals is okay, aborting an adult or zygote or fetus is okay. But it's still wrong.
9. Carrying a rapist's baby to term and delivering it are signs of "moral strength", and aborting a baby from rape is a sign of a lack of moral strength.
10. Religious people think that blame only corresponds with intention, so since they're not intending to enslave women they are guilt free. And they consider themselves lucky for that.
11. Religious people think that a woman removing an unwanted fetus from her body is the same as walking into a nursery and killing a baby.
12. Religious people think that saying that women have the right to choose is no different from saying that women CAN'T choose. So religious people who deny women authority over their bodies are no different than our support for women to have full authority over their bodies.
13. Religious people think that if you want to eliminate the death penalty and rehabilitate criminals then you should logically be forced to support the enslavement of women.
14. Religious people think that people supporting a woman's authority over her own body is "pandering".
15. Religious people will become impatient if you remind them repeatedly that humans have authority over their own bodies.
As I said, it's a cursory list. Still, I think you've got a pretty robust answer on what the deal is with religious people and abortion. As topics go,the abortion issue is always a crowd pleaser.
[NOTE: This list was compiled directly from John 6IX Breezy's arguments and direct logical inferences from his comments in this single thread. Feel free to check with him on any list items that seem unacceptable to you.]
Great list. I'd like to nominate the following addition:
16. Since one of the primary purposes of the most successful religions is to regulate sexual access, it is only natural that they should think they have the authority to regulate the consequences of sex.
@Truett: A more exact summary is impossible... and a bigger list of bullshit... well, they can always be overcome. It seems unreal in the middle of the twenty-first century in a civilized society.
Iowa Bill Would Let Parents Prevent Children From Having Abortions As Long As They Are Unmarried. This is crazy.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/accordingtomatthew/2017/04/iowa-bill-let-pa...
abortion is illegal in my country, and because of this (probably, maybe poverty and education is also a factor) many pregnant women seek the help of a quack doctor to get an abortion which is very unsafe and sometimes leads to their death.
I side with the original SCOTUS that found that conception is not alive yet and rights remain individual. Meaning that a woman that has conceived retains individual rights.
Personally, I don't like abortion but I have no say in that decision only in defending who has that decision.
The argument is about individual rights. The right-side of the aisle contends that those rights pertain to the undeveloped fetus and strip away the rights of the woman. But really what they are saying that there are no individual rights and rights remain in the authority of their ideology. Ergo their religion. There so adamant about it that they go further and say that the authority of their religion has domain over and above the Constitution and having said that contend that abortion is illegal in ANY condition to the point that not only the government cannot advise or finance it in any way but it would be a crime as it is a sin in the eyes of their religion. I KNOW that this idea is profusely wrong and is an encroachment by church. It violates the Establishment Clause of the United States Constitution. Which is the supreme law of the land. "The First Amendment's Establishment Clause prohibits the government from making any law “respecting an establishment of religion.” This clause not only forbids the government from establishing an official religion but also prohibits government actions that unduly favor one religion over another." source Google of the Establishment Clause.
Enacting laws that not only prohibit abortion for ANY reason but also making it a crime IS establishing a religion because to enact said law favors a religion ideology over all other beliefs and or non-beliefs. Therefore abortion should be and is currently legal as it is an individual decision which only concerns that individual.
I find it ironic and hypocritical that religious persons would define life and yet cannot and will not properly define their god, and still, hold everyone else even against their will to their undefined unproven standard of laws of a god.
OK great:
And there is the problem with your new postulates. It is impossible to define x as anything other than a subset of B, which tells us nothing about it; which is exactly why I defined x slightly differently (to avoid this problem). At this point I'm kind of curious how you are going to address this problem. I'm guessing it will be pretty funny. Based on your previous behavior I'm guessing one of the following:
We could turn it into a drinking game!
As a woman who grew up in a very pro-life christian home I can tell you how my thoughts on abortion evolved. We were shown videos panning cut up aborted baby body parts set to the sound of some really sad music. My family was heavily involved in a pro-life programs. Mainly birth choice, a place where pregnant woman can get help with housing, delivery, etc. These videos were shown to them too.We wore tiny fetus sized feet pins and would say if only there were a window on the womb people could see a baby inside and would think twice about killing it.
Fast forward to my age of 38 and my opinions are drastically different. Ive had 3 pregnancies that resulted in 2 breathing kids. All 3 pregnancies brought me close to death and the first pregnancy was twins. One in my uterus and one hiding in falopean tube. So after the first baby in uterus miscarried the baby in tube continued to grow til the end of my first trimester. After crazy amounts of pain and no knowledge of this tubal baby yet I ended up with emergency surgery to remove the 2nd baby. I would have died if baby continued to grow so doctors made the decision to remove it. I had an abortion in a sense and even wondered if they could have moved that baby to my uterus would it have survived. Im not telling you this story for pity or sympathy but shine light on how complex it is to be an pregnant woman. I won't bore you with the next two crazy pregnancies because I've got two great kiddos as a result and abilities I've lost by incubating them doesn't compare to the joy I get from watching them develop. Pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion baby killers. Crime rates have significantly gone down since Roe vs Wade and common sense tells me that has a lot to do with not having unwanted unloved children. If a child isn't comforted in the first years of lifetime struggle to empathize and as adults the consequences are endless. Im so thankful for intelligent men like Pruitt and his list. Understanding that pregnancy is often complicated but what comes next, raising kids, is so much more important or we end up with psychopaths like Hilter. Im thinking Putin wasn't loved much as a kid either.
Im guessing Most men don't like hearing personal stories about a woman uterus. But that is exactly what it is your debating. A woman and the personal choices she's faced to make concerning her uterus and her future. In some ways it would be like me trying to explain why the balls are more sensitive than the tip. I really have no clue as men have no clue what its like to have a uterus. I think every pro-lifer needs to adopt a parentless refugee or immigrant and then ill believe they are truly pro-life. Sorry if this is too harsh. I'm not a man hater. Just want them to respect woman.
@JamieB: What I think is that many men believe have a right to tell women what to do with their bodies. Does that mean that a man cannot give an opinion about abortion? Of course yes, what they can not, and we have seen a few comments in that sense along this topic, that's to say that a woman kills a nasciturus, to begin because that's a jerk.
Well, they don't fool anyone.
It seems to me that no matter what anyone's opinion is, no matter what any laws allow or deny, abortion will continue to happen. Some women will continue to make decisions about their own bodies. Always have, always will.
The only difference is whether women have to keep it a secret and whether they can obtain an abortion that is medically safe. So all the anti-choicers' opinions ultimately effect only those two things. These anti-choicers can live in their righteous little worlds believing they have done something that is, in their opinion, good. It is, in reality, not. It is power mongering, pure and simple.
A woman's control of her own reproduction is what, in the end, will lead humans out of poverty and need.
well as medical science has come to realize that a women carrying a fetus is really carrying a human being, and that life is precious, but I agree in away if that child has birth defects then they should terminate that fetus. why make the child come into this world disadvantaged in one way or another.i think in the long run you help society in this way.
When did medical science come to realize these things? Who comprises this medical science?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1440624/
Id like to think most humans don't want to hurt a baby or fetus. This Article helps to explain how consciousness is needed to process pain. Unfortunately people will continue to procreate without desire or means to have a child
I believe, in some cases, aborting the fetus is more human than subjecting to some of the horrible things unwanted children endure.