Wolf in Sheep's Clothing - Forum Demographics

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Old man shouts at clouds's picture


I've been fighting the established church for 20 years. Not just because of their latest in a long long line of horrible crimes against humanity but for their favorable treatment, lobbying, manipulation of the law, the courts and the police.

We nibbled at the edges, reported what we could, and the paedophilia scandal has rocked the base. Hopefully the more of us who agitate coupled with the decline in voting members will see a marked decline in the established churches pernicious hold on the body politic.

Its what I do. I write, I lobby, I agitate. I can phsically do no more. It is high time the Catholic Church was relegated to a bad folk memory..

Fleeing in Terror's picture
Same here. I wandered in

Same here. I wandered in here as a break from writing every single English speaking bishop on the planet to complain. My first thread on pedophilia contained the legal reference text to use as ammunition.

If you speak any other language, you could translate and I could do another language group of bishops.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture

If you want their attention send it in latin...

Fleeing in Terror's picture
The fact that they have

The fact that they have essentially and proudly defined Christ as the Great Penis in the Sky to Which You Must Sacrifice Children is not enough?

I will leave you with this ammunition:

Benne Dick - compared women who want to be priests to pedophiles.

They continually and publicly promote pedophiles and pornographers to Rome, (including Law - pimp to hundreds of pedophiles in the Boston archdiocese) while Mueller excommunicates women who ask to be priests.

The mantra in the Church is that priest represent Christ - so the vatican vision of Christ is a deranged predator of children, holy only because it is male.

I never think of the previous entity in possession of the vatican as anything other than - That which declared its dick God and offered our children in sacrifice to it.

Its next response was to try to eliminate homosexuals in the priesthood, i.e. It is only problem if boys are molested. Girls - apparently being abused is their normal function.

The 'new' translation of the Creed - Christ died for us MEN. The original Greek was 'anthro' something a deliberately neuter noun. By taking a deliberately neutral noun and translating as male AFTER Benne Dick - thoroughly convinced me that they all believe that a core principal of Christianity is that the soul is located in the penis. Which apparently goes along with Milton in Paradise Lost.

Then we have a group of supposedly celibate old men, whose response to the pedophile crisis was to defend the pedophiles, holding a Sin Nod on the "family" based on a ridiculous survey that violated all proper statistical data gathering principles. Family! I wouldn't put any on them in charge of a Pet Rock.

I finally realized the whole point must have been to void that ridiculous Muelir Dig - whatever that they wrote saying that women are in charge of the family. What was to jobs of the women at the Sin Nod? - Look pretty & stifle.

Then we have the "mercy" prayer. - So Biblically inaccurate it reads as - Don't worry - Christ forgives you for being female.

Then the PA bishops forced all the priest to blatantly lie about PA Bill 1947 - which sought to extend the statute of limitations on pedophilia. They said that the law would ONLY target non-profits. If you read the bill, it specifically states that sovereign immunity would be waived so that public entities could be sued. (That fact that the bill was poorly written was beside the point.)

One of the most rabid activists, was Bill Donahue of the "Catholic" League - "The bill has only One Purpose - To stick it to Catholics!"

He believes Catholics have the right to rape children and they are the only group that does so!? - He took that down after I complained on his web site that he was trashing any credibility that church had left.

He also believes in "Catholic Astrology" and one of his biggest supporters is Philadelphia Archbishop Slap You. A friend called Donahue - Chaput's mouthpiece.

I complained to my priest, who replied by singing the praise of our local bishop. Then another of Bill Donahue's essays "Women's Moral Descent" showed up at Bible Study - The Theme - Men have the right, and moral obligation, to decide which women deserve to be raped.

I started researching and found the legal reference showing how Canon Law - essentially 'legalized' pedophilia and the problem has been steadily increasing over the 2.5 generations since it was written. Including how Francis was effectively saying - We are a nation of pedophiles to the UN - When quizzed on pedophilia - all he talked about was national sovereignty.

And I can't write to them in Latin. I don't know how. I am as old as Vatican II when it was eliminated (old enough to be a grandmother) and I don't know how.

So old man, you say YOU are fighting, and the other post says I have an agenda - Dam Straight!

I need something to occupy the 3-4 days a week I used to spend in Church.

Fleeing in Terror's picture
Oh & guess WHICH BISHOP was

Oh & guess WHICH BISHOP was chosen to attend this year's Sin Nod on Youth/ The one who has done the most to endanger the youth of the church - SLAP YOU!

Old man shouts at clouds's picture

"And I can't write to them in Latin. I don't know how."

Write in English. There are numerous online translation services...and at least with latin you only have to have it translated once. Not into numerous languages. That was my point.

Fleeing in Terror's picture
Tried that - Wound up with

Tried that - Wound up with gibberish per the theologian I asked to read it.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
Then ask your local priest or

Then ask your local priest or ex priest (they are a dime a dozen nowadays) or write to the local university. they will do it for you.

I've never had a problem having stuff translated to and from ecclesiastical latin...keep plugging away and explore all the options.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
Oh I just thought...you are

Oh I just thought...you are specifying Ecclesiastical latin? There's a difference between that, Vulgate latin and classical latin.

I hope the theologian agrees with your 'mission' or you might just be being misled. Shifty lot theologians.

Fleeing in Terror's picture
He was pretty ticked off as

He was pretty ticked off as well. He said his Latin isn't very good and most theologians don't speak it.

It seems to be a rapidly shrinking club.

I don't know of any ex-priests. I think most hide or are 6 feet under. Some move sideways to Old Catholic church, which ordains women.

thanks for your support and thank you to the forum for giving me a place to vent.

LogicFTW's picture
Hey despite our difference of

Hey despite our difference of opinion on organized religion and Catholic church as a whole, you do have an ally in fighting pedophila in any church/religious organization.

It is a rather sad state of affairs, (or perhaps very telling,) that these religions that are over 2000 years old (by their own telling,) still have not managed to solve the problem of pedophila by its supposed religious "blessed" leaders. And in fact many of them in their ancient text openly embraced it. It is enough to quit religion altogether for that simple reason alone.

Fleeing in Terror's picture
The pedophilia problem is

The pedophilia problem is just the last 100 years. That is when the vatican 'legalized' it by eliminating punishment and any method of getting rid of the pedophiles. Previous to that, they just turned them over to the civil authorities. See my first message thread for the details.

LogicFTW's picture
Oh I highly doubt that. It

Oh I highly doubt that. It became a problem in the last 100 years when people started demanding accountability in their churches, and society as a whole progressed in the last 100 years to: sex with minors by an authority figure is a serious no no.

Fleeing in Terror's picture
Not quite. Yes, all

Not quite. Yes, all organizations would have had pedophiles - As I said, previously when discovered, the Catholic Church just turned them over to the civil authorities. Then they decided to handle 'in house' and essentially 'legalized' it.

“Canon Law – A Systemic Factor in Child Sexual Abuse in the Catholic Church.” (free download from National Catholic Reporter) The second is the lay version “Potiphar’s Wife.” (buy on line for real money - report by Canon Lawyer to the Australian government.

I've confirmed with a friend of the author and the law firm from the movie "Spotlight"

LogicFTW's picture
Ah okay, I misread you,

Ah okay, I misread you, thought you were trying to say pedophillia in the church was not a problem until recently, which you are not saying.

You are saying (if I read you correctly,) 100 years or so ago the church brought policing of it in house, my guess as damage control. Probably in part, because of their decaying power they could no longer count on police/criminal justice system to keep it quiet. Especially with the invention of the printing press, (newspaper,) and now a days tv/internet that can spread news of abuses far and wide to everyone instantly.

Fleeing in Terror's picture
It was a combination of the

It was a combination of the pope watching nearly all of the other crowned heads of Europe rolling (sometimes literally) and freaking out. Remember, the pope is an absolute monarch.

and THE RADIO. The thought of the abuse going world wide in seconds.

David Killens's picture
@Mrs. Paul Owczarek

@Mrs. Paul Owczarek
"Humans divide and merge between groups almost as much as they breath. I think there is a fancy psychological term for it. Be wary of the ones who don't. They can have a higher than normal probability of firing automatic weapons into a crowd or be more likely to be victimized. Ability to merge into groups increases the chances of survival."

Do you have studies or data to support this assertion?

Then please explain Cromwell, John Wayne Gacy, Charles Manson, Hitler, or Stalin, who had to be established within social circles to be able commit their horrific atrocities.

And what about Moses? That dude spent forty days wandering the desert alone.

Going by biblical accounts jesus had his own opinions and refused to conform to societal pressure to shut his yap. So where do we categorize people like that, was he psychotic or a potential mass murderer?

Or John the Apostle? He definitely drifted in and out of different social groups. The guy was nothing but itinerant vagrant.

But I desire to see studies or data that supports your assertion.

Fleeing in Terror's picture
Do you have studies or data

Do you have studies or data to support this assertion? - Go wander alone, mentally, ill in a large city. Do you need more than that?

Then please explain Cromwell, John Wayne Gacy, Charles Manson, Hitler, or Stalin, who had to be established within social circles to be able commit their horrific atrocities. I wish you could. I am trying to figure that out myself.

And what about Moses? That dude spent forty days wandering the desert alone - Hardly. He had the whole group with him. They left the oppressive group to wander the desert - where it was safer - to re-establish the gender ratios until they could protect themselves. The Bible has they took over - The archaeologists say more they took over the culture and merged.

Same with the Anglo Saxon conquest of Britain - more a wave of refugees who merged with the Celts.

Jesus - and he died for it. His followers also died until they started to turn the society around.

"John the Apostle" - Which one? Do you mean St. Paul?

David Killens's picture
Please answer my question, by

Please answer my question, by providing proof.

You made an assertion that has not yet met it's burden of proof.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture


"Same with the Anglo Saxon conquest of Britain - more a wave of refugees who merged with the Celts."

The Britons were not Celts.
Many Southern tribes were refugees from the Roman invasion of Gaul some of whom had celtic roots. The older tribes were Britons.

The Celtae ( Caledonians) came from Hibernia (Eire) and before that from the Iberian peninsula. They and the Picts inhabited the Northern part of Britain now called Scotland and parts of Northumbria and Yorkshire. Hadrian's Wall was the Southern territorial marker between the Roman territory of the subjugated Britons and Gauls in the South and the rebellious, warlike Northern tribes of Celts and Picts.
The Angles Saxons and Jutes didn't arrive (In succeeding waves) until the 6th and 7th Centuries, (Not in Scotland, Cornwall* or Wales*) to be supplanted in the kingdoms of Mercia, Northumbria, by the Vikings who started raiding in the 8th century culminating in the Norman (Viking) takeover of 1066.

* Cornwall and Wales were much earlier Celtic invasions speaking a related but very different Celtic rooted language to the Caledonians and Irish. Much closer in language and custom to the Bretons in France who were pushed into their area by the Franks and later the Vikings.

Fleeing in Terror's picture
It was a program I watched a

It was a program I watched a long time ago about the history of languages. It was discussing the English language development theories being upended. The previous theory was the big, bad, invaders came in and wiped out the previous language speaking group and replaced it with the 'low German.' Then a new researcher can in and asked why we speak German with a (I could have sworn they said) Celtic grammatical structure. Did all your groups have languages with similar grammatical structure or did I completely mis-remember?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture


The names "Brittonic" and "Brythonic" are scholarly conventions referring to the Celtic languages of Britain and to the ancestral language they originated from, designated Common Brittonic, in contrast to the Goidelic languages originating in Ireland.

"Brittonic" (and "Brythonic") were often used for all the P-Celtic languages, including not just the varieties in Britain but those Continental Celtic languages.

Heres this from the BBC which shows how off the detail of my history is nowadays...I learnt something!

"The Angles were Germanic invaders who came from the Danish-German border and conquered most of Roman Britannia, giving the country its later name, England (Angle land), and dividing it up into seven kingdoms.

Ida was the warlord who carved out the northern-most Anglian kingdom, Bernicia, north of Hadrian's Wall, in the fertile farmlands around the River Tweed. This led to a struggle over territory in the 6th and 7th centuries with the Britons, who were based at Dumbarton on the River Clyde. It was a struggle that the Britons seemed to lose.

Angle power was in the ascendant. In 603 they defeated Aedan, Gaelic King of Dál Riata, at the battle of Degsastan.

In 638 the Bernicians took Edinburgh from the Britons, but greater success followed under their great warlord Oswui (641 – 670). In a series of campaigns Oswui conquered Dumfriesshire, Galloway, Kyle and the Lothians. To the south he took the Angle kingdom of Deira, that covered Yorkshire, and forged a new kingdom – Northumbria.

So great was Oswui's power that both the Picts and the Gaels recognised his overlordship. Only after the Picts defeated the Angles at Dun Nechtain (Dunnichen) in 685 AD did Northumbrian expansion halt and their overlordship was finally broken."

David Killens's picture
@Mrs. Paul Owczarek

@Mrs. Paul Owczarek
"The woman founder of the American religion"

Who was that? And what exactly is or was the "American religion"?

Fleeing in Terror's picture
I am not looking to write a

I am not looking to write a Masters thesis or want an endless debate on a subject I just have a passing interest in.

I remember the isolation studies they did with the poor baby monkeys. Without contact from another, they went completely insane. The less contact, the more violent. Rest is anecdotal. Are you interested in psychology & psychiatry?

The woman founder of one of the American religions, I believe, was from the series on the History of Religion in America - Probably on PBS.

David Killens's picture
@Mrs. Paul Owczarek

@Mrs. Paul Owczarek
"The woman founder of the American religion"

Please back up that statement. You have no problem writing long posts, and to provide proof of "The woman founder of the American religion" does not require a dissertation. Some links to reputable sources, or a brief explanation would probably suffice. Referring to a PBS program is as vague a response as one could generate. That is definitely insufficient.

You do understand that making wild claims or incorrect assertions would be challenged in here? I expect you to respond, I am sure you do not desire to be perceived as one who dishes it out but can't take the heat. And I certainly do not want us to remember you as just one of many drive-by posters who runs away at the first sign or trouble.

Sheldon's picture
"The impetus to stop the

"The impetus to stop the trade was RELIGIOUS. "

That's nonsense sorry. Religion was the justification for the slave trade. The biblical endorsement of slavery and The fact that Christian nations historically viewed non-christian nations as sub human savages.

All of the southern plantation owning slavers were Christians. You're attempting to rewrite history using selection bias, where you cite the Christian beliefs of some abolitionists, but ignore the Christian beliefs of slavers.

What's more the slavers had the bible on their side unequivocally. Read Exodus 21

Fleeing in Terror's picture
Not really. You are mixing

Not really. You are mixing Old and New Testament. Exodus 21 was setting limits on treatment and time of indentured servitude and compensation to the slave for injuring a slave.

The first sentence says only 6 years of service allowed. Slavery did not start with the Africans in the American South. It was endemic throughout history. The word itself comes from the Slavs that were sold in the Roman markets.

Hebrew law is the start of setting limits on the practice that grew into the abolition of slavery.

The American slavers discounted both the old & new testaments in their treatment of slaves.

The keeping of slaves was economical and was dying out in the American south until Eli Whitney made it profitable.

I know of abolitionists fighting using Christian arguments. I am not aware of abolitionist arguments from a non religious argument. Can you provide examples on non-religious arguments. They may well exist, but not have gotten as much press.

Sapporo's picture
The overwhelming majority of

The overwhelming majority of posters on these boards consider themselves atheists - I don't think determining any percentage is going to be particularly meaningful.

Fleeing in Terror's picture
Probably only to me to see if

Probably only to me to see if you consider yourselves any more inclusive than other groups. Also to see if any other believers show up to argue the other side. If you are not looking for a debate on ways to make the world better, why did you pick the title at the top? That was the biggest reason I started here.

Otherwise this is just another chapter in the international society of whiners and I will go.

David Killens's picture
I don't know about that. Do

I don't know about that. Do you categorize those who buy donuts as a "group"? And just like a person who likes donuts, the one and only thing I definitely have in common with other atheists is my lack of belief in a god.


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