Atheism is a faith like anyone else

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ferguson1951's picture
Atheism is a faith like anyone else

Hello friends,

I am 68, single, from Italy, "radical" Christian.
You ask for proof that God exists?
When the Pharisees asked Jesus to give a sign that He was the Son of God He refused. The sign was Him.
Prayers are not answered?
I doubt prayers from an atheist can be answered: you have to live the New Testament and become a disciple of Jesus and you will know different.
Atheism is just a faith like faith in the parallel universe.
The non-existence of God cannot be proved, and that's all there is to it.

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CyberLN's picture
Ferguson, I suspect you have

Ferguson, I suspect you have an incorrect definition of atheism. Most folks identified as atheist DO NOT claim there is/are no god/s.

ferguson1951's picture
Atheism: definition , , ,from

Atheism: definition , , ,from greek, A (without) Theos (God)

atheism
/ˈeɪθɪɪz(ə)m/

noun
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

CyberLN's picture
I lack belief in any gods.

I lack belief in any gods. Do you think that is the same as saying none exist?

LogicFTW's picture
@ferguson1951

@ferguson1951
First I would like to echo what CyberLN said about the definition of atheist.

But I will also quickly address your post:

You ask for proof that God exists?

Yes, if you want to make the claim that your particular god idea exists.

When the Pharisees asked Jesus to give a sign that He was the Son of God He refused. The sign was Him.

You call this proof? Oh dear, I better understand now why you think the way you do. Not to worry, many others think just like you so don't feel singled out.

Prayers are not answered?

They are not, prayers by anyone are not "answered" whether they are atheist/theist/(insert any religion/god idea here.) This should be plainly obvious. The test, experiment, and results is carried out millions of times a day, (perhaps billions!) and the result is always the same, nothing above random chance for any statistically relevant population/group sizes. Prayer is not a strength or proof of god, it is the opposite, religion would do well to distance themselves from prayer if they wanted to claw back a bit of credibility.

Atheism is just a faith like faith in the parallel universe.

Err... wait... How old are you? Perhaps you watch too many sci-fi shows? This...'sigh'... ya know what? Now I feel bad. Believe what you want to believe. When you are ready for the truth come back here and we can talk.

The non-existence of God cannot be proved, and that's all there is to it.

Actually agree with you there, pretty easy to conjure up a definition of god that cannot be disproven. Except what you may not realize is, in rational discussion, when you create an idea that cannot be disproved that signals a serious FLAW in the idea. It should be a giant red flag, with additional flashing red buttons and sirens pointing out "this idea is highly likely to be fiction and not reality."

 
 

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I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
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Randomhero1982's picture
So you have to essentially

So you have to essentially brainwash yourself, deny reality, deny logic and deny empiricism in order for your personal belief system to be even remotely coherent...

Well that's convinced me!

Hallelujah!

What an absolute pile of utter bollocks.

ferguson1951's picture
I just wanted to know

I just wanted to know something about English atheists.
You must have gone to university, the tomb of all spiritual research.
Just like Italian atheists, you want to apply the scientific method to religion.
If people are so dumb as to expect that God will bend when they ask God for 1.000 pounds then you are really too far away to understand.
First study the Christian religion deeply, then practice it and then tell me about it.
I cannot waste my time with pathetic rational talk.
See you some time.
Thanks for putting up with me.

Pirate Jack's picture
If prayers are answered, why

If prayers are answered, why the fuck do millions of people starve? Your explanations are bullshit! Keep believing whatever you want to. There is not ONE shred of proof of any god. You are delusional.

LogicFTW's picture
I cannot waste my time with

I cannot waste my time with pathetic rational talk.

Careful, your "troll" is starting to show. Reel it back if you want to keep the ruse going...

 
 

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I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
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Cognostic's picture
@ferguson1951: (HA! I

@ferguson1951: (HA! I SUSPECTED YOU WERE NOT A NATIVE SPEAKER.)
Just like Italian atheists, you want to apply the scientific method to religion.

??? Well ferguson1951, what method should we apply to religion. And if it works for religion can we apply it to everything else in our life as well?" I am certainly curious to see what you are going to replace science with. PLEASE SHARE! ???? IF IT WORKS AS WELL AS SCIENCE - I'M IN!!!

RE: "First study the Christian religion deeply, then practice it and then tell me about it."
UM....... Many people on the site, myself included, were once Christians. We are telling you about it. Have you not seen the studies that demonstrate Atheists tend to know more about the bible than do Theists. Pew Research Center - a Theist Organization - Asserts "Survey: Atheists, Agnostics Know More About Religion Than Religious"

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2010/09/28/130191248/atheists-an...

Bad Santa's picture
@fertuson

@fertuson

I cannot waste my time with pathetic rational talk

Good!
Stop then!
Goodbye!

We can't stand your "rational" talk either

Tin-Man's picture
Hey! Ferguson! Your lack of

Hey! Ferguson! Your lack of belief in Santa is a faith just like everybody else!... *suddenly noticing Bad Santa in room*... Oh... Uh... Oops... *nervous chuckle*... Uh, hey there, BS! Didn't see ya there. How the hell ya been, my buddy?.... *turning head slightly away from BS*.... *raising hand to face to block view of mouth*... *whispering back to Ferguson out of corner of mouth*... Pssst... Hey, Fergie, forget what I said about that whole Santa stuff.... *turning back to BS with huge toothy smile on face*.... Soooo... How's Rudolph and the gang been doing lately?...

Bad Santa's picture
@Tin-Man

@Tin-Man
Hahaha... doing well my friend! Just returned from a 3 week tour of my old country Poland and a bit of Czech Republic and Germany. Fabulous experience!
One distinct impression I got was that Poles are obsessed with 2 things: ice cream (stands are everywhere) and putting up statues of John Paul II in every available space (wander why?...hm). Pretty soon the only room left will be in public bathrooms, imagine little figurines above toilets and urinals..
And Rudolph and the gang? Went on vacation to Mexico... I'm afraid they will try to cross the boarder illegally but I'm not sure if Trump will let them in with my hand made North Pole passport.

LostLocke's picture
When the Pharisees asked

When the Pharisees asked Jesus to give a sign that He was the Son of God He refused. The sign was Him.

Ah, I see.
So if I say Lolth exists, and someone wants evidence of that, all I have to do is point to a spider and say that that's the evidence in itself.

Sapporo's picture
Why did Jesus refuse to give

Why did Jesus refuse to give a sign that he had sex with pigs?

Algebe's picture
@ferguson1951: First study

@ferguson1951: First study the Christian religion deeply, then practice it and then tell me about it.

The only people who "study the Christian religion deeply" are the popes, priests, and preachers who cynically exploit it for money and sex, and atheists, who see it for the ludicrous scam that it is.

Everyone else just gets born into Christianity/Hindu/Islam, etc., and goes with the flow in the place they live.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ferguson1951: First study

@ferguson1951: First study the Christian religion deeply, then practice it and then tell me about it.

If you had studied the Christian religion deeply you would realise that there is absolutely no contemporary evidence for the existence of the magical Jesus figure you revere.

If that first quote is the level of your argument then you are exposing your vast ignorance for the world to see.

Cognostic's picture
RE: Atheism is a faith like

RE: Atheism is a faith like anyone else. (Atheism is faith like any other belief?) Obviously an issue with English but I get what you mean and I assume English is not your first language. Thanks for being brave and posting your opinion. Italy is by far one of my favorite countries. Absolutely loved my 2 trips there. Pom Pei is by far my favorite ruin site in the world.

Okay - down to business. "FAITH" We need an operational definition to avoid making an equivocation error.
In one sense of the word you are correct. (Faith = Confidence). Atheists have confidence that their position, "There is no good reason to believe in God or gods" is correct.

In the other sense, "The Biblical Sense" (Faith is Evidence.) Hebrews 11:1 King James Version "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." YOU ARE INCORRECT. You will need to tell us how you are using the term.

RE: When the Pharisees asked Jesus to give a sign that He was the Son of God He refused. The sign was Him.

Um..... not sure what this has to do with Atheists having faith. Let's pretend Jesus did exist, even though we have little to no good evidence for the claim. Can you get him to appear before me? I might accept that as evidence that he actually exists. I don't know what else I could infer from his presence but we might then be off to a good start. If he did appear would that be evidence of a God though? Not really. Jesus could just be a super intelligent alien having a bit of fun. I think we would need a bit more.

Prayers are not answered? (Well, lets ignore the fact that I have an entire thread supporting the fact that God answers prayers. Of course it depends on what you pray for as well as God's plan.) Lets look at the facts. The best prayer study to date was conducted by the Templeton Foundation

(The John Templeton Foundation (Templeton Foundation) is a philanthropic organization that reflects the ideas of its founder, John Templeton, who became wealthy after a career as a contrarian investor and wanted to support progress in religious and spiritual knowledge, especially at the intersection of religion and science.) SO THIS IS A RELIGIOUS FOUNDATION DOING RELIGIOUS SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH. I point this out because you do not seem to be familiar with prayer studies of the foundation.

Way back in 2006, the John Templeton Foundation published the results of its study on prayer and its effect on people who were suffering from major heart conditions and undergoing heart surgery. The study was double-blind and used a control group. Two groups were chosen, one of which were prayed for and the other which was not, but neither were told which group they were in. A third group served as a control were prayed for and told this.

After 2.4 million dollars invested from the Templeton Foundation and 2.3 million invested from the federal government, here are the results:

More people (59%) in the control group (PEOPLE WHO KNEW THEY WERE BEING PRAYED FOR) suffered more complications than in the groups who did not know if they were being prayed for (51%).
18% of those in the uninformed prayer group suffered major complications (including heart attack) as compared to 13% in the group that did not receive prayers. (THE GROUP BEING PRAYED FOR HAD MORE HEART ATTACKS)

These results have precedent: (THEY ARE VERIFIED BY OTHER STUDIES) the New York Times reports on a study done in 1997 studied 40 alcoholics in recovery. Those who were prayed for did worse than those who were not.

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html
"Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation."

I THINK WE ARE DONE ON PRAYER ---- THE DOOR IS CLOSED.

RE: The non-existence of God cannot be proved, and that's all there is to it.
You are using an incorrect term here "Proved." "to demonstrate the truth or existence of (something) by evidence or argument." Why would anyone run about disproving every insane claim that came along? You can't prove Blue Universe Creating Bunnies did not create the universe. THAT'S NOT THE WAY THINGS WORK.

You are attempting to "shift the burden of proof." The person who makes the positive claim. "God Exists" has the burden of proof. You must 1. Define what you mean by God. 2. Provide evidence for your claim. That which is asserted without evidence can be rejected without evidence. No one needs to prove a silly idea wrong for it to be wrong. If you would like me to demonstrate that your silly idea is wrong, please define your god and give evidence for it. If you can not do that, we are really talking about nothing at all. If we are talking about nothing at all..... well... nothing is NOTHING>.

Get off my lawn's picture
@Cognostic: "Let's pretend

@Cognostic: "Let's pretend Jesus did exist, even though we have little to no good evidence for the claim. Can you get him to appear before me? I might accept that as evidence that he actually exists."

How would you know it was actually the Jesus described in the Bible, and not some other random guy named Jesus, or someone just claiming to be Jesus, or an actor, or if you are just hallucinating?

Sheldon's picture
"How would you know it was

"How would you know it was actually the Jesus described in the Bible,"

Are you say your deity can't convince someone it's real? That seems oddly incongruous against claims it has limitless power and knowledge. Either way, and as Cognostic pointed out, there's no contemporary evidence Jesus existed at all, and nothing but unevidenced anecdotal claims decades after the fact for the supernatural claims.

You might just as well claim Hercules was real, and the legends attributed him to be true.

Get off my lawn's picture
@Sheldon: "Are you say your

@Sheldon: "Are you say your deity can't convince someone it's real?"

My deity? What kind of alternate universe are you living in? ;-)

Problem is, what constitutes a proof of the kind Cognostic outlined? Is it enough that a person named Jesus, whether pronounced hesoos or joshua or whatever, appears in front of him, or do other terms and conditions apply? How do you distinguish a real hesoos from a fake hesoos? And how do you distinguish the "real deity shit" from convincing hallucinations?

Sheldon's picture
So you can demonstrate no

So you can demonstrate no objective evidence for your beliefs, have a chip on your shoulder that it championed the vapid notion of faith for centuries, and you not only don't know what atheism means, you can't be bothered to Google the definition.

Atheism
Noun
1. disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Why on earth would an atheist pray? You seem very ill-informed I must say. You also seem unaware that double blind clinical trials have been conducted to test the efficacy of intercessory prayer, and showed no discernable effect. There is no evidence beyond anecdotal claims that prayer works, what's more all different religions make the same claims for prayer to different deities. Needless to say when questioned they simply ignore or dismiss with handwaving all failures, this is called selection bias.

"The non-existence of God cannot be proved, and that's all there is to it."

That's a logical fallacy, it's called argumentum ad ignorantiam. I suggest you look that up. The claim offers no definition of God, or offers unevidenced characteristics that are unfalsifiable, by definition unfalsifiable claims cannot be falsified. This doesn't make them true.

If I claimed the world was full of invisible unicorns you could only detect through faith and prayer, no one could disprove that claim either, but it would be just as meaningless as your claim. Unfalsifiable claims are easy to construct, but show us nothing. So no, that's not "all there is to it," and I suggest you educate yourself about the flaws in such arguments, rather than blindly swallowing woeful religious apologetics, that are so weak people ought really to be embarrassed to parrot them.

Sorry if this seems harsh, but your claims are seen on here regularly, and rebutted each time, it becomes a little tedious after a while. And I do wish theists would learn to think for themselves with an open mind.

ferguson1951's picture
This talk leads to nowhere.

This talk leads to nowhere. If and when you will roast in Hell, you will know I was right.

Talyyn's picture
@ferguson1951

@ferguson1951

So now that your trolling has failed, you resort to threaten us with fire and brimstone?

Tin-Man's picture
@Ferguson Re: "If and when

@Ferguson Re: "If and when you will roast in Hell, you will know I was right."

Hey, Fergie! If you happen to get there before I do, would you mind putting in a good word for me? Oh, and maybe save me a good seat? I imagine an individual of your caliber has a special place and an extra warm welcome waiting for them there... *grin*...

CyberLN's picture
ferguson, you wrote, “This

ferguson, you wrote, “This talk leads to nowhere.”

For whom?

LogicFTW's picture
@ferguson1951

@ferguson1951
So how do you know so much about hell and who goes? Been there? How was it? Are there hot demon chicks that torture you with knives and whips and stuff while sporting a dom outfit kind of like in the "lucifer" tv series?

Sounds like a fun night to me! And I am not even a masochist.

Cognostic's picture
@ferguson1951: "If and when

@ferguson1951: "If and when you will roast in Hell, you will know I was right."

"IF"........ WOW! Is that cognitive movement I see? Are we beginning to make a bit of progress? Good for you! Always question your stupid shit inane dogma. "IF" is a great word to use when beginning a theistic insult. Your progress is not wasted on us. We all noticed it and certainly want to encourage more of it in the future. GOOD FOR YOU! Else-wise, this is exactly the position we expect a loving Christian to take. If you were not in the process of emerging from your narrow minded, bigoted, theistic perspective, we would have expected the exact same comment without the "IF" in front of it. We all think it is great that you have begun questioning yourself and our idiotic beliefs. GOOD FOR YOU!!!! KEEP IT UP!!!

Sheldon's picture
"This talk leads to nowhere.

"This talk leads to nowhere. If and when you will roast in Hell, you will know I was right."

So you breeze in make a raft of ludicrous unevidenced claims, and woefully ill-informed arguments, then sulk when these are debunked. Typical theists nonsense, and I am no more afraid of the vapid fantasy of Hell, then I worry a mermaid will drag me to a watery grave, or a unicorn will trample me. Sadly you are as closed minded as most of the theists who come here. All talk will lead nowhere until you learn to think for yourself, and stop parroting risible superstition you can demonstrate no objective evidence to support.

Randomhero1982's picture
UK atheists???? Ohhhh we are

UK atheists???? Ohhhh we are a new breed! Speciation has occured!!!!!!!

doG's picture
Do you have any objective

Do you have any objective evidence that your god exists? This is what is needed for something to exist in reality. I imagine that you do not, as you would have collected your nobel peace prize, and be on a years long, well publicized tour, as the only person to evidence a god in the history of ever. People are presently still trying to evidence a god, without success. what I mention is easy to understand. Now here comes the hard part for you to understand. We as atheists have a subgroup, that do not believe in a god, as your claim of a god, is not objectively evidenced. We don't believe that a god existed or ever existed as supernatural things do not exist in our reality, Supernatural events are proven to not occur in reality...they are, by nature, not evidenced as they are above the physical laws that define our reality, so they exist only as a construct in a persons mind, and not in reality. Do you know, by definition, that believing in something without evidence, is delusional. Why do theists believe in a god, without any objective evidence...that, is irrational and a true failure in the basic human function of reason. Not being able to define truths by weighing the preponderance of corroborating or contradictory evidence is that failure...to bypass this glaring error, religions use the concept of faith, in attempt to convince people that reason is not needed. The only problem with this, is that faith, is not a pathway to truth...you can literally believe in anything without evidence. All theists, including you, fall within this category. Atheists however, can reason truths, and are not relegated to using faith. We live in a natural world were supernatural things do not exist, we don't fail at reason, as you do. Now here is an even harder truth for you to understand. All theists have cognitive dissonance, where their brain rejects anything that does not corroborate their irrational belief in a god. You don't even know that you are suffering from this. So you have a psychological issue preventing you from thinking critically, and thus arriving at the the only rational explanation to religion...that being that god does not exist. Now, as atheists can not disprove your god, as he never existed in our existences natural reality, to actually measure. Bur we can show that some biblical events crucial to most religions are an impossibility to occur, thus invalidating the entire concept of several religions, including yours. The LHC in Cern, has defined our physical world through scientific discovery of physical truths. We can now say that no physical pathway for prayer or a soul exists. Considering there is no physical pathway observed after a couple decades of research at the LHC, and that this research has validated the general theory of physics, down to the smallest subatomic particles without any explanation for data to be magically transferred from the human body...or that there is a physical receptacle for a biblical soul, or a pathway for this soul to be transferred from a human body at death. Despite the non-existence of a conduit for a biblical soul or prayer existing in reality, there are physical impossibility that these magical supernatural processes can emanate from a human body. It takes 13tev energy to collide particles to observe their reaction...as humans are physical, the biblically asserted prayer or soul concept would have to undergo the same level of energy to separate data in a prayer from the body, or the data needed to convey the information of a biblical soul. Our bodies can not produce that energy, nor do we physically have the necessary hardware to physically contain that energy...so, if we could produce that level of energy, which we can't, 13tev energy, would instantly carbonized you when sending a prayer, or instantly carbonized you when your soul leaves your body at death...which just does not occur. Considering these truths, how does your religious belief system work without prayer or a soul? It doesn't. Anywho, I could go on for hours pointing out why IMHO your god doesn't exist, but as I ,sheldon and others have pointed out, it would likely fall on def ears.

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