Is God Real? A thought experiment.

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Travis Hedglin's picture
"Do you believe absolute

"Do you believe absolute truth exists or doesn't exist?"

Absolute - Without doubt, objective, lacking all uncertainty.

Truth - A statement, equation, or declaration that appears to be concordant to reality based on our subjective experience and reasoning.

Truth is, by its definition, contingent upon a minds ability to apprehend it. If the argument is made that all experience and information we can gather is of the subjective variety, which is what you said earlier, it cannot be absolute by any definition.

Chriliman's picture
Exactly, I said absolute

Exactly, I said absolute truth cannot be tested or verified by our subjective minds, thus the requirement to "believe" it's real or not real. None of us have absolute consciousness or else we would all have infinite knowledge and absolute objectivity, essentially we would all be Gods and we know this isn't true, correct?

If you can believe that absolute truth does exist, then we can easily believe that an absolute consciousness realizes that absolute truth (since we have to be conscious to realize our own truths). That absolute consciousness realized us to be conscious beings with the ability to realize our own truths. We can realize a truth that opposite of absolute consciousness's absolute truth and thus evil is introduced into our objective reality. Evil can't exist in an absolute conscious mind because it's impossible for absolutes to contradict.

Its very interesting to think about this, if you care to discover more...

Travis Hedglin's picture
"Exactly, I said absolute

"Exactly, I said absolute truth cannot be tested or verified by our subjective minds, thus the requirement to "believe" it's real or not real."

That is why we don't simply use our subjective minds to test or verify reality, but have come together and worked out methodologies and created tools that allow us to test for things without relying on our individual perceptions of the reality we appear to inhabit. While being imperfect and allowing some possibility for error, it is far more likely that a object or phenomenon with multiple pieces of evidence and well documented occurrences is concordant with this inhabited reality, than one with little or none of these. While we may not be able to be ABSOLUTELY certain that beheading someone kills them, for they may be magically and mysteriously shuffled into an alternate plane of existence an have their bodies replaced with damn good facsimiles, ALL available evidence points to the former and not the latter. This means that the belief that decapitation kills us is justifiable, while the converse isn't. When it comes to beliefs about existence and the universe, not all beliefs are equal, and a reasonable belief can be justified with proper evidence and argumentation.

"None of us have absolute consciousness or else we would all have infinite knowledge and absolute objectivity, essentially we would all be Gods and we know this isn't true, correct?"

Odd little bit of language you are using here, adding absolute in front of things does not make it magic. Also, one could consider consciousness absolute, as that is the ONLY thing we can reasonably be absolutely certain of. As far as omniscience, that is separate from consciousness, so I am not sure how one would necessarily lead to the other in any way.

"If you can believe that absolute truth does exist, then we can easily believe that an absolute consciousness realizes that absolute truth (since we have to be conscious to realize our own truths)."

I don't believe that absolute truth exists, as truth is a statement made by an entity, and all entities we are aware of do not have omniscience. This means that while an absolute or objective reality exists, all truth statements made about it are not absolute, because the concepts of "absolute" and "statement of truth" are contradictory. A statement of truth is made by an entity, and until anyone can show that an entity exists that escapes the bounds of subjective experience, they will NEVER be absolute.

"That absolute consciousness realized us to be conscious beings with the ability to realize our own truths."

...and magical pixies gave me a colon so I could crap regularly. Both our statements are equally supported, and equal in scope.

"We can realize a truth that opposite of absolute consciousness's absolute truth and thus evil is introduced into our objective reality."

No. You are arbitrarily, and rather ironically, changing definitions. Without any support or introduction you are attempting to introduce an "absolute consciousness"(whatever the hell that is supposed to be), deciding it can or would make statements of absolute truth(which we have established I don't believe in), and anything counter to it is now "evil" without either definition or qualification. This is basically a word salad without dressing.

"Evil can't exist in an absolute conscious mind because it's impossible for absolutes to contradict."

Only if absolute evil doesn't exist, if it does, it requires the same "absolute consciousness" and originates from it.

"Its very interesting to think about this, if you care to discover more..."

So far, what I have discovered, is that you really like words and semantics makes my brain want to crawl our my ear and microwave itself.

Chriliman's picture
"Odd little bit of language

"Odd little bit of language you are using here, adding absolute in front of things does not make it magic. Also, one could consider consciousness absolute, as that is the ONLY thing we can reasonably be absolutely certain of. As far as omniscience, that is separate from consciousness, so I am not sure how one would necessarily lead to the other in any way."

You can't comprehend absolute truth so how do you presume to know it's not magic? If we consider consciousness absolute then we can easily conclude that our consciousness creates everything we see and I've already stated this is an absurd thing to believe. Absolute consciousness could easily be omniscient as we can't comprehend an absolute conscious mind.

"I don't believe that absolute truth exists, as truth is a statement made by an entity, and all entities we are aware of do not have omniscience. This means that while an absolute or objective reality exists, all truth statements made about it are not absolute, because the concepts of "absolute" and "statement of truth" are contradictory. A statement of truth is made by an entity, and until anyone can show that an entity exists that escapes the bounds of subjective experience, they will NEVER be absolute."

You believe an absolute reality exists, yet you don't believe an absolute truth exists? Can you explain how this could be possible? Our consciousness is required for truth and objective reality to exist for ourselves, thus the same could be said for absolute truth and absolute reality, an absolute conscious mind is required for either to exist.

"...and magical pixies gave me a colon so I could crap regularly. Both our statements are equally supported, and equal in scope."

This very thought proves my point. Many "gods" have been thought of throughout history. You can either look at it as man just creating "gods" or that there is one absolutely true God, that has created man in His image and has allowed man to have free will to choose Him or not choose Him.

The only real difference between these two views is that if the former is true then our consciousness realizes our reality, which seems absurd. If the latter is true, then this could explain why we have a moral compass and are driven to do the right thing and compare our moral standard to something beyond ourselves. The latter seems more likely to me, thus my belief in one absolutely true God.

"Only if absolute evil doesn't exist, if it does, it requires the same "absolute consciousness" and originates from it."

I can show how it's not possible for absolute evil to exist. An absolute conscious mind has always existed and will always exist and the first creatures it created were immortal beings called Angels. Each Angel was created to have free will, but they know of God objectively, we don't. God appointed one of these Angels to be the leader of all Angels and this caused that Angel to become prideful and think he could be better that God and thus the Angel was banished from absolute reality into normal reality, which God had created as well. This angel became the devil and he was able to deceive man who God also created to have free will. Man could have chosen not to listen to the devil, but we didn't and thus we gained the knowledge that the devil created in the first place "knowledge of good and evil". So you can see that evil only came about when God created creatures with their own free will. We and the angels do not have absolute consciousness and therefore absolute evil can never exist. You can't deny this all makes sense, its just starts with a belief that absolute truth must exist.

Lets consider the idea that absolute truth does not exist. If this is true then when we die, we cease to exist, or maybe we don't maybe the energy it takes to power our consciousness is just reused elsewhere in a different form. Okay, I can see how that's possible, but what about the claim that the universe started from nothing/non existence. If absolute truth does not exist, why do we observe the universe as having a beginning? Well, it could be possible that our conscious minds are creating what we observe as the universe having a beginning, but this is already becoming absurd. So maybe it seems more likely that absolute truth does exist and that the universe does have a beginning.

Well it can't be possible for the universe to come from non existence because if we believe absolute truth exists then this would mean it was absolutely true that the universe didn't exist then it became absolutely true that the universe did exist, but absolutes cannot contradict so this also seems impossible. The only other option is if an absolute conscious mind realized absolute truth and made it absolutely true that the universe began, thus creation! Since an absolute conscious mind always existed and will never cease to exist, there is no need for anything before it to have created it. This also means that non existence is impossible.

I know this is a lot to take in, but take it from someone who has thought about this a lot. Don't be afraid to question your beliefs to the fullest. Just remember the devil is real and he'll do anything to keep you blinded, you must fight. God has sacrificed himself for you because of this and that sacrifice is Jesus, you just have to believe! God has allowed me to make it as easy as possible for people to believe and its my purpose to spread the word and hope that all will listen!

Travis Hedglin's picture
"You can't comprehend

"You can't comprehend absolute truth so how do you presume to know it's not magic?"

Not knowing what something is, is not the same as not knowing what it is not. I may not know what caused the big bang, for instance, but I am really sure it wasn't a cat.

"If we consider consciousness absolute then we can easily conclude that our consciousness creates everything we see and I've already stated this is an absurd thing to believe."

No. Sticking the word absolute in front of consciousness isn't much different from sticking it in front of table, and not everything in the universe needs to fit on that table for it to be a table, either absolutely or subjectively. You are playing far too fast and loose with definitions, and it is getting a little bit irritating.

"Absolute consciousness could easily be omniscient as we can't comprehend an absolute conscious mind."

Absolute consciousness need not be omniscient or everlasting to be absolute, it only need be certain, and your consciousness is the ONLY thing you can be absolutely certain of in solipsism.

"You believe an absolute reality exists, yet you don't believe an absolute truth exists? Can you explain how this could be possible?"

I believe an OBJECTIVE reality exists, that in no way implies I believe in our ability to make 100% accurate assessments of it. Truth is nothing but an entities statements and/or declarations concerning reality, it is never certain or perfect by definition, because it relies entirely on a persons ability to perceive said reality. A belief that an objective reality exists does not necessitate that we or any other entity must perceive it perfectly, just that a reality exists to perceive however inaccurately at all.

"Our consciousness is required for truth and objective reality to exist for ourselves, thus the same could be said for absolute truth and absolute reality, an absolute conscious mind is required for either to exist."

Word salad. A conscious entity is required for statements that can have a truth value, but a conscious entity does NOT have to exist for what those statements to describe to exist. You are treating the concept like a thing, Platonism is dead, move on.

"This very thought proves my point. Many "gods" have been thought of throughout history."

Many magical and mystical beings have been thought of throughout history as well.

"You can either look at it as man just creating "gods" or that there is one absolutely true God, that has created man in His image and has allowed man to have free will to choose Him or not choose Him."

False dichotomy. There are more than simply two ways to look at it, and many gods are not the one you describe in your definition. There could be many gods, one god, or no god at all. God could be a being, object, or force. It could be conscious or unconscious. You are purposefully narrowing these possibilities without just cause to cover a major weakness and error in your argument, which is that it could equally be used to support Smurfs or Fraggles. I would absolutely LOVE for Smurfs and Fraggles to exist, but they don't appear to.

"The only real difference between these two views is that if the former is true then our consciousness realizes our reality, which seems absurd."

More false dichotomy PLUS a strawman. I, at no point, indicated that our perception creates reality. It is you who keeps asserting that perception of reality is necessary for its existence, without evidence or qualification, which is a rather strange notion that I have only ever heard from quantum woo-woo new agers.

"If the latter is true, then this could explain why we have a moral compass and are driven to do the right thing and compare our moral standard to something beyond ourselves."

Or it could be the fact that there is a standard beyond the individual, law for instance, and we don't like being punished very much.

"The latter seems more likely to me, thus my belief in one absolutely true God."

Good for you, I don't agree.

"I can show how it's not possible for absolute evil to exist."

This should be good.

"An absolute conscious mind has always existed and will always exist and the first creatures it created were immortal beings called Angels. Each Angel was created to have free will, but they know of God objectively, we don't. God appointed one of these Angels to be the leader of all Angels and this caused that Angel to become prideful and think he could be better that God and thus the Angel was banished from absolute reality into normal reality, which God had created as well. This angel became the devil and he was able to deceive man who God also created to have free will. Man could have chosen not to listen to the devil, but we didn't and thus we gained the knowledge that the devil created in the first place "knowledge of good and evil". So you can see that evil only came about when God created creatures with their own free will. We and the angels do not have absolute consciousness and therefore absolute evil can never exist. You can't deny this all makes sense, its just starts with a belief that absolute truth must exist."

I honestly don't know where to start, you have just laid a pile of miscellaneous nonsensical crap on the table and told me to sort through it. I can only assume this was meant as a hypothetical. But here goes:

We have no reason to assume the existence of said consciousness or that of angels, but even so the choices of this supposed "absolute omniscient consciousness" appears to support that evil was INTENDED, and therefore as absolute as any other property or intended dimension of its perception. It created things with full knowledge of the results in advance, making free will a rather moot argument, as it set everything up in such a way that you can make NO CHOICE it did not intend for you to make in the first place. There is only a single solitary reality, objective reality, and this "normal reality" you speak of is actually just fluff about perception of that single solitary reality. You set up "evil" as being nothing more than simple subjective perception of this reality, making ALL subjective perceptions "evil" by default. You deny that the actions of an individual with subjective perceptions, acting in an objective reality, will actually have objective consequences which makes absolutely no sense. There are a myriad of problems in your argument, and it doesn't make much sense, and requires one HELL of a lot more than mere belief that an "absolute truth" or objective reality exists.

"Lets consider the idea that absolute truth does not exist."

I don't have to "consider" it, it is an epistemological fact. Subjective beings CANNOT perfect perception, ego all statements and declarations(statements and declarations being the only thing in existence with actual truth value) about reality are imperfect, ergo there can be no perfect or absolute truth value. It is really just that simple, and no amount of mental gymnastics will obviate this most reasonable conclusion.

"If this is true then when we die, we cease to exist, or maybe we don't maybe the energy it takes to power our consciousness is just reused elsewhere in a different form."

I don't know, you don't either, and this goes far beyond the scope of the discussion. Adding metaphysical baggage to the equation will do nothing but make it useless, and will do nothing to clarify anything.

"Okay, I can see how that's possible, but what about the claim that the universe started from nothing/non existence."

I didn't claim that, did you? I never claimed to know what caused the universe, I don't, and I don't even know for sure if time or space might exist outside of it in a different form. Do you?

"If absolute truth does not exist, why do we observe the universe as having a beginning?"

It is the MOST REASONABLE conclusion, based on all the evidence. While we are fairly certain it is true, it isn't an absolute, science does not deal in absolutes.

"Well, it could be possible that our conscious minds are creating what we observe as the universe having a beginning, but this is already becoming absurd."

Is it possible we are experiencing a collective delusion concerning the evidence of the big bang? Yes. Is there any evidence we are? No. Evidence is the sole and solitary determinant of the reasonable and unreasonable.

"So maybe it seems more likely that absolute truth does exist and that the universe does have a beginning."

More conflation. I already said that an OBJECTIVE reality exists, that does not imply an ABSOLUTE TRUTH exists, only that the universe actually exists.

"Well it can't be possible for the universe to come from non existence because if we believe absolute truth exists then this would mean it was absolutely true that the universe didn't exist then it became absolutely true that the universe did exist, but absolutes cannot contradict so this also seems impossible."

We actually don't know what is possible or impossible outside of our observable universe and physics paradigms. We aren't even certain that our "logical laws" apply to everything in our universe, or absolutely anything at all beyond it. What is true beyond this universe? We don't even know if such a question has any meaning outside our selective bubble of spacetime.

"The only other option is if an absolute conscious mind realized absolute truth and made it absolutely true that the universe began, thus creation!"

The only other option you can seem to think of, which is rather limited apparently, and no indication of what may actually be true by any means or stretch of any imagination.

"Since an absolute conscious mind always existed and will never cease to exist, there is no need for anything before it to have created it."

Goody, you discovered that if you posit something that does not have a beginning, you don't have to explain its origin! Except that such a thing isn't actually true, if I posited an eternal gremlin, I would STILL have to explain its existence is actually POSSIBLE. You haven't actually avoided anything, you just pretended to.

"This also means that non existence is impossible."

Heavy claim, based on extremely presumptive an biased logic, steeped in reason so fuzzy that they should use it to make plush toys.

"I know this is a lot to take in, but take it from someone who has thought about this a lot."

I think you need to rethink this.

"Don't be afraid to question your beliefs to the fullest."

I do, constantly, it actually keeps me a skeptic.

"Just remember the devil is real and he'll do anything to keep you blinded, you must fight. God has sacrificed himself for you because of this and that sacrifice is Jesus, you just have to believe!"

Read your last statement. Read this one. Re-read it again. Read this one again. One of these things is not like the other... One of these things just doesn't belong...

"God has allowed me to make it as easy as possible for people to believe and its my purpose to spread the word and hope that all will listen!"

I love how supposed free beings choosing to do something is always simplified to their almighty Kim Jong Un allowing them to do it, it is never theirs to take credit for, they only get to own it when it goes wrong and turns into fault. Ridiculous, it is sad really, an utter abortion of some of the actual logic you used until this point.

Chriliman's picture
"Word salad. A conscious

"Word salad. A conscious entity is required for statements that can have a truth value, but a conscious entity does NOT have to exist for what those statements to describe to exist. You are treating the concept like a thing, Platonism is dead, move on."

This idea isn't Platonism. I'm suggesting an absolute conscious mind exists and has always existed and doesn't experience time and space at all and thus can't make decisions, but just absolutely exists. What do our conscious minds tend to do? Create thoughts and ideas, but only one at a time because we are restricted by time. An absolute conscious mind can be thought of as just a creation point, with no reference to time and space. Thinking about this can really explain a lot about quantum physics. I can explain more if you want.

"I don't have to "consider" it, it is an epistemological fact. Subjective beings CANNOT perfect perception, ego all statements and declarations(statements and declarations being the only thing in existence with actual truth value) about reality are imperfect, ergo there can be no perfect or absolute truth value. It is really just that simple, and no amount of mental gymnastics will obviate this most reasonable conclusion."

This is where your argument breaks down. Just because we can't comprehend absolutes does not mean they don't exist. All we can be completely certain of is that we can't comprehend them.

"False dichotomy. There are more than simply two ways to look at it, and many gods are not the one you describe in your definition. There could be many gods, one god, or no god at all. God could be a being, object, or force. It could be conscious or unconscious. You are purposefully narrowing these possibilities without just cause to cover a major weakness and error in your argument, which is that it could equally be used to support Smurfs or Fraggles. I would absolutely LOVE for Smurfs and Fraggles to exist, but they don't appear to."

Actually, if you really consider this idea you would see that it would be impossible for multiple gods to exist. If this absolute conscious mind doesn't experience time and space like we do then it would be the same as having infinite multiples of itself. In other words you could think of this absolute conscious mind as infinitely conscious. So even thinking there could be multiples of it would be pointless.

"We actually don't know what is possible or impossible outside of our observable universe and physics paradigms. We aren't even certain that our "logical laws" apply to everything in our universe, or absolutely anything at all beyond it. What is true beyond this universe? We don't even know if such a question has any meaning outside our selective bubble of spacetime."

Exactly, thus the idea of an absolute consciousness that doesn't experience space and time, but simply created it in a way we can't comprehend or imagine because of our restriction to time and space.

Travis Hedglin's picture
"This idea isn't Platonism."

"This idea isn't Platonism."

It is kind of similar, an observer doesn't have to exist for an object to exist and do stuff, so objective reality CAN exist without any observers. An observer does have to exist for claims about observations to exist, and those being the only things with truth value, observers have to exist for truth to exist.

"I'm suggesting an absolute conscious mind exists and has always existed and doesn't experience time and space at all and thus can't make decisions, but just absolutely exists."

You have, indeed, asserted such a thing. You have not, yet, provided a single reason or piece of compelling evidence concerning why anyone else should believe it.

"What do our conscious minds tend to do? Create thoughts and ideas, but only one at a time because we are restricted by time."

A lot of people are capable of holding and even creating more than one thought at a time, you underestimate the human brain.

"An absolute conscious mind can be thought of as just a creation point, with no reference to time and space."

There are no privileged frames of reference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad-6DYXfIew

Replace the term "absolute morality" with "absolute truth".

"Thinking about this can really explain a lot about quantum physics. I can explain more if you want."

You can try, but considering I am rather familiar with the subject, I will likely tear your "explanation" apart with even more vigor than I have your philosophical argument. There is nothing, NOTHING, in quantum physics that would require what you seem to think it does.

"This is where your argument breaks down."

Really? Let's see.

"Just because we can't comprehend absolutes does not mean they don't exist. All we can be completely certain of is that we can't comprehend them."

When one of the absolutes in question here is wholly dependent on the ability to comprehend absolutes, like absolute truth is, then I actually CAN infer that the one your appealing to doesn't appear to exist. Your desire to assert as fact that which is NOT evidently true is problematic, because it leave us with little recourse other than pointing out the flaw in doing so.

"Actually, if you really consider this idea you would see that it would be impossible for multiple gods to exist. If this absolute conscious mind doesn't experience time and space like we do then it would be the same as having infinite multiples of itself."

There is no guarantee that two infinitely conscious minds would be identical, anymore than there is a guarantee that subjectively conscious minds would be identical. This means you have asserted another layer to the argument without support, which will obfuscate it even further, as you cannot support the assertion.

"In other words you could think of this absolute conscious mind as infinitely conscious. So even thinking there could be multiples of it would be pointless."

Nope, only if you make a grand assertion concerning it, which we have no cause or need to make.

"Exactly, thus the idea of an absolute consciousness that doesn't experience space and time, but simply created it in a way we can't comprehend or imagine because of our restriction to time and space."

That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

Chriliman's picture
"That which can be asserted

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

Yes, but the only way you can dismiss it is by saying absolute truth does not exist. And I've fully stated what I believe would happen if absolute truth does not exist. Read "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov and see what happens at the end. Still doesn't solve the problem of how it all began.

Only when you consider this idea of an absolute conscious mind can you solve the problem of how it all began. This idea shows that non existence is impossible and that an absolute conscious mind has always existed and thus did not need to be created.

Again you either believe in absolute truth or you don't. The only other option is to not care at all and I don't want to talk to you if you don't care. (I'm not saying you don't care :)

Travis Hedglin's picture
"Yes, but the only way you

"Yes, but the only way you can dismiss it is by saying absolute truth does not exist."

Nope, it is just a happy coincidence that truth claims can't be absolute in scale because of limited perception of the beings making them, I could dismiss your argument without making any claims whatsoever because it is a bald assertion lacking any evidence or truly logical thrust.

"And I've fully stated what I believe would happen if absolute truth does not exist."

Yes, yes you have, but you have also failed to actually provide actual evidence and conclusive argumentation for that position. This means any one can rightly reject it, as it has failed to meet its burden of proof.

"Read "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov and see what happens at the end. Still doesn't solve the problem of how it all began."

No thanks, this argument needs no more layers to obfuscate it, it has already been addressed.

"Only when you consider this idea of an absolute conscious mind can you solve the problem of how it all began."

Can you prove that? Can anyone prove that? You are asserting as fact that which is not evidently true again, and considering that other possibilities do actually exist, it makes your argument even weaker.

"This idea shows that non existence is impossible and that an absolute conscious mind has always existed and thus did not need to be created."

More pixie dust.

"Again you either believe in absolute truth or you don't."

I don't, as I said. Truth is a value assessed to claims, no claims mean no truth. If the only known beings capable of making claims are not omniscient, they can never know an "absolute truth", so there is no reason to assume that such a thing exists. It is better to hold all truth claims as tentative, and allow room for new and better information, than to make up stuff just to make a position seem more lucid.

"The only other option is to not care at all and I don't want to talk to you if you don't care. (I'm not saying you don't care :)"

It isn't that I don't care, it is that you have utterly failed to meet anything approaching the burden of proof for your claims, and continue talking in circles around philosophical nonsense based on axiomatic assertions as if they were fact. Meanwhile, the rest of us, like a little more substantial evidence and conclusive reasoning, instead of attempting to infinity from an unknown; because that is not a valid path to either tentative truth or knowledge.

Chriliman's picture
I completely agree with

I completely agree with everything you've stated. The only difference is, I have an answer for how we all got here and since you don't believe in absolute truth you will never have an answer because you've just stated that it's impossible for us to know absolutes. However, if my answer is correct then when I die I will know the absolute truth because I will no longer be confined to time and space, I'll be in absolute reality which can only exist because of an absolute consciousness. If you are correct, then when I die, I simply won't exist and none of this will matter anyway because eventually we all will not exist anymore based on the idea of "The Last Question". I prefer the former belief. This is what it all comes down to "belief". You should read "The Last Question" it's really fascinating!

Travis Hedglin's picture
"I completely agree with

"I completely agree with everything you've stated."

Really? I wonder about that.

"The only difference is, I have an answer for how we all got here and since you don't believe in absolute truth you will never have an answer because you've just stated that it's impossible for us to know absolutes."

Not having an absolute does not mean we can't have an answer, answers are not absolute, and having an answer doesn't guaranteed that said answer is correct. If I asked for the sum of two and two, and you answered 7, you would have still answered the question even if that answer isn't supported by any base or evidence.

""However, if my answer is correct then when I die I will know the absolute truth because I will no longer be confined to time and space, I'll be in absolute reality which can only exist because of an absolute consciousness. If you are correct, then when I die, I simply won't exist and none of this will matter anyway because eventually we all will not exist anymore based on the idea of "The Last Question". I prefer the former belief."

You prefer the former unsupported and unsupportable claim, while I hold the latter well-supported and rational position, don't pretend both positions are equally justified.

"This is what it all comes down to "belief". You should read "The Last Question" it's really fascinating! "

What it come down to is whether one is willing to baldly assume the existence of things without valid reasoning, I am not, so I am stuck wallowing in my poor reasonable sanity. How terrible!

Chriliman's picture
"Not having an absolute does

"Not having an absolute does not mean we can't have an answer, answers are not absolute, and having an answer doesn't guaranteed that said answer is correct. If I asked for the sum of two and two, and you answered 7, you would have still answered the question even if that answer isn't supported by any base or evidence."

Yes, we can have answers, but while were alive in our subjective minds, we'll never find the absolute answer to everything.

"What it come down to is whether one is willing to baldly assume the existence of things without valid reasoning, I am not, so I am stuck wallowing in my poor reasonable sanity. How terrible!"

You are baldy claiming that absolutes do not exist when you don't have evidence to support this claim. Your saying the lack of evidence is how you come to this conclusion, when you have stated that a subjective mind can't possibly comprehend absolutes. How do we ever expect to find evidence for something we can't comprehend? It seems even if the evidence for absolutes smacked us in the face we still wouldn't be able to comprehend it. Essentially, your claiming that it's absolutely true that absolutes do not exist, which seems like a contradiction. I'm simply stating that its absolutely true that absolutes do exist, no contradiction there.

Travis Hedglin's picture
"Yes, we can have answers,

"Yes, we can have answers, but while were alive in our subjective minds, we'll never find the absolute answer to everything."

And? I fail to see the problem here?

"You are baldy claiming that absolutes do not exist when you don't have evidence to support this claim."

No I didn't, I said I don't belief in absolute "truth", as "truth" is a value WE(cognitive beings) assign to things based on their concordance with reality. This means that there is not yet any reason to believe that, beyond us pathetic creatures, "truth" value exists. Hell, beyond us pathetic creatures, the concept of "absolutes" doesn't appear to exist. Also, the idea of "truth" is a subjective value! If someone asked how many birds I see outside my window, and I only saw three, it would be true that I saw three birds outside my window. There probably are, in fact, birds beyond my range of vision, but I didn't see them. Truth is mostly contextual, meaning that the truth changes with the context, which makes it as malleable as anything else. You are conflating truth with objective reality, they aren't actually the same thing, all truth is based on our subjective perceptions of reality. This makes the words "absolute truth" or "objective truth" oxymora, the two words are contradictory, making the phrase virtually meaningless from the get-go.

"Your saying the lack of evidence is how you come to this conclusion, when you have stated that a subjective mind can't possibly comprehend absolutes."

Yep, it isn't anywhere near perfect or absolute, but it is the BEST we have.

"How do we ever expect to find evidence for something we can't comprehend?"

Because we understand the concept well enough to know that it isn't something possible for us.

"It seems even if the evidence for absolutes smacked us in the face we still wouldn't be able to comprehend it."

Objective reality "smacks us in the face" everyday, we can never be sure we comprehend it perfectly because we know we don't perceive perfectly, but we make due with what we have.

"Essentially, your claiming that it's absolutely true that absolutes do not exist, which seems like a contradiction."

Truth isn't absolute.

"I'm simply stating that its absolutely true that absolutes do exist, no contradiction there."

Yes, there are actually, further you pile more contradictions on top of it!

You state "objective reality MUST exist outside and separate from our consciousness to exist", I agree, of course.
But later you state "objective reality MUST exist inside and be dependent upon a consciousness to exist", which is nonsense and contradictory to your ENTIRE premise. You argue that an absolute consciousness MUST exist, but that is a bald contradiction, as consciousness is a state of experience which is subjective by definition. Then you argue that this consciousness creates reality, which is just as absurd as me arguing that you create it. If I were forced to conclude that a consciousness is necessary to create reality, which we aren't by any means or stretch of the imagination, then lex parsimoniae DEMANDS that I pick the one with the fewest assumptions. In this case it would be that I create reality, which I don't believe, so your argument fails.

Chriliman's picture
"Objective reality "smacks us

"Objective reality "smacks us in the face" everyday, we can never be sure we comprehend it perfectly because we know we don't perceive perfectly, but we make due with what we have."

I agree, you're also saying that even if your consciousness isn't there to experience objective reality, that objective reality will still be there correct. So it is absolutely true that the objective reality we find ourselves in will still be there whether or not we are conscious to realize it's there. Correct?

We have to use an absolute truth to define this statement because we're saying a subjective conscious mind isn't there to experience the objective reality, so subjective truth goes away and all thats left is absolute truth of an objective reality. This is why I'm certain absolute truth does exist because I believe even if I wasn't conscious the objective reality would still absolutely be there.

"Truth isn't absolute."

I agree, but only because our subjective minds are able to realize this. Only absolute truth can be absolute, which our subjective minds cannot comprehend. It's absolutely true that objective reality exists whether or not there is a conscious mind to realize it, there is no getting around this absolute truth, unless you believe our consciousness creates everything we see and that absolutes do not exist.

"You state "objective reality MUST exist outside and separate from our consciousness to exist", I agree, of course."

I agree.

"But later you state "objective reality MUST exist inside and be dependent upon a consciousness to exist", which is nonsense and contradictory to your ENTIRE premise."

You are creating a contradiction where there wasn't one. I'm simply saying objective reality does not exist for a subjective consciousness that is not conscious. We must be conscious to realize our objective reality, which is absolutely there and does not depend on our consciousness to be there.

Put even simpler:

consciousness = realizing subjective truth/reality as well as objective truth/reality (to a limited degree)

no consciousness = well nothing (except for what's absolute)

"You argue that an absolute consciousness MUST exist, but that is a bald contradiction, as consciousness is a state of experience which is subjective by definition. Then you argue that this consciousness creates reality, which is just as absurd as me arguing that you create it."

The only reason for my view is that fact that we can't comprehend absolutes. Yet, we are able to think about their implications and this I believe is no accident.

An absolute consciousness that isn't confined to space and time should not be considered subjective but rather absolute or infinite, thus the discussion. Have you read my thoughts on quantum physics yet?

Travis Hedglin's picture
"I agree, you're also saying

"I agree, you're also saying that even if your consciousness isn't there to experience objective reality, that objective reality will still be there correct."

If it didn't appear to exist outside and independent of consciousness, we wouldn't consider it to be objective.

"So it is absolutely true that the objective reality we find ourselves in will still be there whether or not we are conscious to realize it's there. Correct?"

The statement has truth value, the statement is a subjective statement made by a subjective being, but we can't be absolutely certain of it so it is therefore not absolute.

"We have to use an absolute truth to define this statement..."

Nope, just our subjective understanding of the reality we inhabit.

"...because we're saying a subjective conscious mind isn't there to experience the objective reality, so subjective truth goes away and all thats left is absolute truth of an objective reality."

Nope, if all conscious minds capable of making statements disappear, there would no longer be anything that could have truth value.

"This is why I'm certain absolute truth does exist because I believe even if I wasn't conscious the objective reality would still absolutely be there."

Nope, you are only certain that objective reality would still be there, which is an axiom we accept to navigate the reality we inhabit. You would have not truth, as you wouldn't be conscious to assess that value.

"I agree, but only because our subjective minds are able to realize this."

Then you don't really agree with me, as you are making a different claim that appears to be completely dissimilar to mine.

"Only absolute truth can be absolute, which our subjective minds cannot comprehend."

Truth is that which is comprehended, making your statement a semantic game of hokey-pokey.

"It's absolutely true that objective reality exists whether or not there is a conscious mind to realize it..."

Read this. Read it again. Read it a third time. It is TRUE, just true, that an objective reality MUST be independent from and outside of any conscious mind to remain objective. It REQUIRES that it is so, so it relying on ANY conscious("absolute", "supernatural", or "preternatural" included.), would MAKE it subjective to a consciousness BY DEFINITION.

"...there is no getting around this absolute truth..."

Except that "truths" aren't actually absolute by definition.

"...unless you believe our consciousness creates everything we see and that absolutes do not exist."

I don't believe that, but I am agnostic about it. We don't actually know for certain that objective reality exists, as it relies on that imperfect perception that we talked about before, but we MUST take it axiomatically to navigate it according to its framework.

"You are creating a contradiction where there wasn't one."

Nope.

"I'm simply saying objective reality does not exist for a subjective consciousness that is not conscious. We must be conscious to realize our objective reality, which is absolutely there and does not depend on our consciousness to be there."

Nope, it doesn't rely on consciousness of any type at all, otherwise it would be subordinate to it and subjective by definition.

"Put even simpler:

consciousness = realizing subjective truth/reality as well as objective truth/reality (to a limited degree)"

Nope. Consciousness is just existence, everything else is axiomatic.

"no consciousness = well nothing (except for what's absolute)"

Nope, the unconscious know no absolutes nor anything at all.

"The only reason for my view is that fact that we can't comprehend absolutes."

Indeed, which means arguing for or against them are purely arguments for ignorance by definition.

"Yet, we are able to think about their implications and this I believe is no accident.'

Ha, yes the implications of things we don't understand is something we spend a great deal of time on, we call it science. By the way, it isn't absolute or based on them either.

"An absolute consciousness that isn't confined to space and time should not be considered subjective but rather absolute or infinite, thus the discussion."

Doesn't matter, the MOMENT you make reality subordinate to ANY consciousness, it is subjective to the will and dictates of the consciousness.

"Have you read my thoughts on quantum physics yet?"

Yep, and I have addressed a few of them, you are using them improperly.

Chriliman's picture
"If it didn't appear to exist

"If it didn't appear to exist outside and independent of consciousness, we wouldn't consider it to be objective."

Agreed

My quote> """So it is absolutely true that the objective reality we find ourselves in will still be there whether or not we are conscious to realize it's there. Correct?"""

Travis Hedglin> "The statement has truth value, the statement is a subjective statement made by a subjective being, but we can't be absolutely certain of it so it is therefore not absolute."

Basically you're saying it is my belief and yes that is true, I do believe absolutes exist, just as you say you believe absolutes do not exist. The fundamental difference between us.

""We have to use an absolute truth to define this statement...""

"Nope, just our subjective understanding of the reality we inhabit."

Again, you're saying you don't believe objective reality exists unless our consciousness realizes it first. If you say it "true" that objective reality exists whether or not you are conscious, then that "truth" must not be dependent on your consciousness, thus making it absolute. Do I need to start using examples to explain this?

""...because we're saying a subjective conscious mind isn't there to experience the objective reality, so subjective truth goes away and all thats left is absolute truth of an objective reality.""

"Nope, if all conscious minds capable of making statements disappear, there would no longer be anything that could have truth value."

This can be solved with an absolute conscious mind that has always existed which can realize absolute truth. Our consciousness is an absolute truth. I realize I can only state that because I believe in absolutes. However, when I consider this idea, I can answer every single question about life. How could this be possible by just believing in absolute truth? Should I really take your point of view and not believe in absolute truth and not have every question in life answered? Try me, ask any serious philosophical/scientific question and within my knowledge, I'll be able to give you an answer simply because I believe in absolute truth.

"Read this. Read it again. Read it a third time. It is TRUE, just true, that an objective reality MUST be independent from and outside of any conscious mind to remain objective. It REQUIRES that it is so, so it relying on ANY conscious("absolute", "supernatural", or "preternatural" included.), would MAKE it subjective to a consciousness BY DEFINITION."

I've read it more than you've ask because I want to understand your thinking, but when I understand your thinking it simply doesn't make sense. What I can understand is that you're saying ANY conscious including absolute consciousness must exist within objective reality? Okay, so absolutes must exist in objective reality, is this what you're saying? So absolute truth/reality must exist within objective reality, even tho our subjective consciousness is required to realize that objective reality? So why can't we test and verify absolutes if they exist in our objective reality? Maybe I'm not understanding what your saying because this doesn't seem to add up.

""...unless you believe our consciousness creates everything we see and that absolutes do not exist.""

"I don't believe that, but I am agnostic about it. We don't actually know for certain that objective reality exists, as it relies on that imperfect perception that we talked about before, but we MUST take it axiomatically to navigate it according to its framework."

So now your choosing to be agnostic? So you don't necessarily believe God does or does not exist. I given you a really good reason to believe He does exist, yet you still choose to be agnostic? Remember I said I don't care to talk to someone who doesn't care about this subject. I do however believe you do care and that you want to take a position rather than claim to be agnostic.

""consciousness = realizing subjective truth/reality as well as objective truth/reality (to a limited degree)"'

"Nope. Consciousness is just existence, everything else is axiomatic."

So how is an absolute consciousness not existence?

""no consciousness = well nothing (except for what's absolute)""

"Nope, the unconscious know no absolutes nor anything at all."

Your assuming to know exactly what happens to an unconscious mind, I don't think anyone can know exactly what happens because we're all subjective and if I'm unconscious I can't possibly know anything except for some near death experience or other unexplainable experience.

""The only reason for my view is that fact that we can't comprehend absolutes.""

"Indeed, which means arguing for or against them are purely arguments for ignorance by definition."

Unless you choose to believe absolutes exist, in which case all life's questions will be answered, but only after much turmoil and struggle because there is something out there that really wants to keep you blinded. I've experienced this turmoil as I've stated before, I didn't come to this conclusion easily. It was the biggest spiritual battle of my life, but in the end it's definitely worth the fight to have this clear purpose in this life and beyond.

""An absolute consciousness that isn't confined to space and time should not be considered subjective but rather absolute or infinite, thus the discussion.""

"Doesn't matter, the MOMENT you make reality subordinate to ANY consciousness, it is subjective to the will and dictates of the consciousness."

Yes but if we consider an absolute consciousness that can only realize absolute truth/reality/morality/judgment/mercy/objectivity/love it cannot realize an absolute lie/non existence/immorality/ignorance/evil/hatred. It cannot contradict what it has realized because it's absolute. It can create a conscious mind that has free will to realize something opposite of its will thus evil/lies/immorality/ignorance/hatred are introduced into our subjective and objective realities. It makes perfect sense to me which is why I believe it.

Sorry for the double quoting, hope it wasn't too confusing. This site needs a better way to handle quoting.

Travis Hedglin's picture
"Basically you're saying it

"Basically you're saying it is my belief and yes that is true, I do believe absolutes exist, just as you say you believe absolutes do not exist. The fundamental difference between us."

Since none of it is certain, it boils down to what we will axiomatically accept, and I don't accept things unilaterally without conditions. There may be absolutes, or there maybe no absolutes, either way we must still navigate the framework of this reality with our limited comprehension.

"Again, you're saying you don't believe objective reality exists unless our consciousness realizes it first."

Nope, and I honestly don't know where you get that from. I said we don't have to use an "absolute" "truth" to define something, as such a thing would be beyond comprehension even if it did exist, so we are still quite limited to our subjective perceptions.

"This can be solved with an absolute conscious mind that has always existed which can realize absolute truth."

It is unnecessary to do so, it only attempts to solve a problem that never was.

"Our consciousness is an absolute truth."

My existence is an absolute, statements about that existence can be truth, but the two only intersect at the maxim "I exist".

"I realize I can only state that because I believe in absolutes."

Well, it would be hard to claim omniscience or access to it without claiming that you had absolute truth, wouldn't it?

"However, when I consider this idea, I can answer every single question about life."

Not without quite a basketful of extraneous assertions unnecessary for existence or reality.

"How could this be possible by just believing in absolute truth?"

By believing that our subjective perceptions and experiences are absolute.

"Should I really take your point of view and not believe in absolute truth and not have every question in life answered?"

Having an answer doesn't guarantee its correctness or accuracy, and if the answers are founded on am ever more increasing quantity and complexity of unfounded assertions, lex parsimonae tends to slice it out.

"Try me, ask any serious philosophical/scientific question and within my knowledge, I'll be able to give you an answer simply because I believe in absolute truth."

What causes the uniformity in wavefunction collapse pertaining to entangled particles across vast distances in shorter than relativistic periods?

"I've read it more than you've ask because I want to understand your thinking, but when I understand your thinking it simply doesn't make sense."

Neither does yours. You AGREE that reality cannot be subordinate to a consciousness and remain absolute or objective, but in the very next breath argue for a consciousness being the originator of all reality, it is quite ironic and stunning.

"What I can understand is that you're saying ANY conscious including absolute consciousness must exist within objective reality?"

Yes, any reality subordinate to a consciousness would be subjective by all definitions.

"Okay, so absolutes must exist in objective reality, is this what you're saying?"

Nope, merely reiterated a statement that seems to elude you in some fashion. You agree, disagree, agree again, and continue to apparently misunderstand the argument.

"So absolute truth/reality must exist within objective reality, even tho our subjective consciousness is required to realize that objective reality?"

Why do you keep trying to imply that I am saying any of that when at no point did I, ever.

"So why can't we test and verify absolutes if they exist in our objective reality?"

Because absolute verification is impossible by subjective creatures, it really is just that simple.

"Maybe I'm not understanding what your saying because this doesn't seem to add up."

Perhaps because you continually add on things I never said?

"So now your choosing to be agnostic?"

You really need to look up this word.

"So you don't necessarily believe God does or does not exist. I given you a really good reason to believe He does exist, yet you still choose to be agnostic?"

The context of agnosticism in my reply was that I was agnostic about the proposition of an absolute reality. Just in case you didn't know, agnosticism is a claim about KNOWLEDGE and extends far beyond god. Considering that, your reply is very strange.

"Remember I said I don't care to talk to someone who doesn't care about this subject."

I remember.

"I do however believe you do care and that you want to take a position rather than claim to be agnostic."

I do take a position on BELIEF, agnosticism is my position on KNOWLEDGE. I don't KNOW whether some ambiguous god exists or not, but neither do I believe in one, that is an atheist by definition.

"So how is an absolute consciousness not existence?"

Because you are using absolute in a different context than objective. You are adding metric tons of religious baggage on it, which isn't simply unsupported, but also unsupportable.

"Your assuming to know exactly what happens to an unconscious mind, I don't think anyone can know exactly what happens because we're all subjective and if I'm unconscious I can't possibly know anything except for some near death experience or other unexplainable experience."

If you aren't conscious(and I don't mean awake by conscious but the capital C), YOU can't experience anything because there is no YOU by default. Consciousness is a philosophical principle defined as: sentience, subjectivity, the ability to experience. So if you aren't conscious, you aren't experiencing anything by default.

"Unless you choose to believe absolutes exist, in which case all life's questions will be answered, but only after much turmoil and struggle because there is something out there that really wants to keep you blinded."

2+2=Banana

"I've experienced this turmoil as I've stated before, I didn't come to this conclusion easily. It was the biggest spiritual battle of my life, but in the end it's definitely worth the fight to have this clear purpose in this life and beyond."

I am beginning to despair that you will actually understand my argument.

"Yes but"

Nope, no buts or butts, you are playing entirely too fast with words. Reality, if subordinate to your god, would be no less "subjective" that if it were subordinate to you or I.

"Sorry for the double quoting, hope it wasn't too confusing. This site needs a better way to handle quoting."

As long as I can understand you, it doesn't really bother me, the books I like are a much greater time investment than this.

Chriliman's picture
"Since none of it is certain,

"Since none of it is certain, it boils down to what we will axiomatically accept, and I don't accept things unilaterally without conditions. There may be absolutes, or there maybe no absolutes, either way we must still navigate the framework of this reality with our limited comprehension."

You've stated that your existence is an absolute. If your existence is an absolute then how can your existence not be an absolute. In other words if its absolute that you exist then it can never be absolute that you don't exist. Thus you exist and will always exist even before you were born and after you die. This gives rise to the idea of immortality after we leave this objective reality when we die. If this doesn't make sense to you then I wish I could explain it better.

""However, when I consider this idea, I can answer every single question about life.""

"Not without quite a basketful of extraneous assertions unnecessary for existence or reality."

This is simply your belief about what I believe. Does not mean I'm wrong or even that your wrong. My belief just answers a lot more about life than your belief.

""How could this be possible by just believing in absolute truth?""

"By believing that our subjective perceptions and experiences are absolute."

Again, how can you claim something is absolute when you don't believe in absolutes? If our subjective perceptions and experiences are absolute then our subjective perceptions and experiences can never not be absolute. Thus if our subjective perceptions and experiences absolutely exist then they can never not exist. Thus the idea that non existence is impossible.

""Should I really take your point of view and not believe in absolute truth and not have every question in life answered?""

"Having an answer doesn't guarantee its correctness or accuracy, and if the answers are founded on am ever more increasing quantity and complexity of unfounded assertions, lex parsimonae tends to slice it out."

Exactly, and lex parsimonae tending to slice it out is an answer that isn't guaranteed to be correct. Again, all comes down to belief.

""What I can understand is that you're saying ANY conscious including absolute consciousness must exist within objective reality?""

"Yes, any reality subordinate to a consciousness would be subjective by all definitions."

It seems by this statement you're claiming to have a full understanding of an absolute conscious mind and are able to say that it must exist within objective reality. If you actually do have a full understanding of an absolute conscious mind then I would have to agree with you because this would make you God. Last time I checked though, no human can even fully define consciousness let alone absolute consciousness. It seems your statement is irrational.

"What causes the uniformity in wavefunction collapse pertaining to entangled particles across vast distances in shorter than relativistic periods?"

Did you read what I wrote below? If not here it is again:

Now, let me be as open minded as possible and take the point of view of an atheist in regards to this concept of absolute consciousness. Well If I'm an atheist and I truly think about this concept with an open mind to all possibilities, I could find one thing that could potentially prove that this concept is completely false. That one thing that could potentially prove this concept is completely false is the idea of sameness.

If our consciousness can define something as being the same as something else and then we extend that to absolute consciousness, then the absolute consciousness would define absolute sameness, meaning everything absolute consciousness defines must be absolutely the same as itself, thus causing absolute consciousness to have to be exactly the same as consciousness. Making this concept appear false. Did that make sense?

If I'm still an atheists and I'm still considering this concept with an open mind, then I am still considering that consciousness can define sameness. Now lets use an example to better explain this:

Our consciousness defines two particles as being exactly the same, accept that there is a difference between them, the two particles must take up two separate amounts of space, because if they took up the exact same amount of space they would be absolutely the same and if they are absolutely the same they must become one single particle.

This thought is very interesting when considering quantum physics. Lets think about a different example before we get to that:

Remember I'm still an atheist considering this theory with an open mind. Lets say our consciousness defines two ideas to be exactly the same. Well again the two same ideas must be thought of one at a time, thus one same idea is thought of at a point in time and the other same idea is thought of at a different point in time, thus they cannot be absolutely the same because if they where then they would be a single idea at a single point in time. Make sense?

Now considering the possibility that absolute consciousness has already defined our consciousness as having the ability to define things as the same, we can never define things as absolutely the same and there inlies the difference between our consciousness and absolute consciousness, they cannot possibly be one in the same. Absolute consciousness can define things as absolutely the same as well as just the same, whereas we can only define things as the same and not as absolutely the same.

Lets imagine that point of interaction between absolute consciousness and our subjective consciousness. Absolute consciousness doesn't not experience time and space and created the universe in a single point of action with no reference to time and space. Now we use our subjective consciousness to view the absolute smallest things in our universe and we observe weird behavior that shouldn't be possible in our objective reality. Material particles behave as if they are waves, seeming to interfere with each other when they should act as separate particles. Could this be a result of a single creation point interacting with our objective reality. That single point of creation doesn't need to be either a particle or a wave because it isn't experiencing time and space, but when we view it from our subjective point of view we see it as both a particle and a wave because of our restriction to time and space.

This could also explain uniformity in wave function in quantum entanglement. If an absolute conscious mind that has is not restricted to time and space creates the universe, it simultaneously realizes all possibilities. In other words it has infinite knowledge. When we observe the smallest particles in our universe we are observing this point of creation from our confinement to time and space. Thus when we observe this creation point we see particles acting like waves, when actually these particles were created with no reference to time and space so they don't need to be either a particle or a wave.

For me this explanation is really easy to view as possible, thus my belief.

"If you aren't conscious(and I don't mean awake by conscious but the capital C), YOU can't experience anything because there is no YOU by default. Consciousness is a philosophical principle defined as: sentience, subjectivity, the ability to experience. So if you aren't conscious, you aren't experiencing anything by default."

Okay, so if I'm not Conscious, does objective reality still exist? If it does still exist how is it not absolute? If it is absolute, how can you claim to not be sure if absolutes exist?

"I am beginning to despair that you will actually understand my argument."

The trouble is that I do completely understand your argument. Your argument is that absolutes may or may not exist, but then you say it is absolute that you exist and that objective reality is absolute, yet even though you say these things you're still not sure if absolutes exist. You however refuse to completely understand my argument which is much simpler than your's. Absolutes exist! There thats my argument.

"As long as I can understand you, it doesn't really bother me, the books I like are a much greater time investment than this."

Okay, lets talk about books. I read your book "Why There Is No God". You didn't even have to ask me to read this book by the way because I decided to read it on my own when I truly wanted to seek truth. Now I'm going to ask you to read "Mere Christianity" by C. S. Lewis. If you read that with an open mind and then come back to this debate, I will have much more respect for your opinion. I'd suggest using Audible, I was able to get through a lot of content using that, it's great!

Travis Hedglin's picture
"You've stated that your

"You've stated that your existence is an absolute."

Yep.

"If your existence is an absolute then how can your existence not be an absolute."

I didn't, I claimed that I couldn't know if any other absolutes even exist.

"In other words if its absolute that you exist then it can never be absolute that you don't exist."

Why, does time not exist? The law of logic this is based off of even deals with this temporally, it states that contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time. Moreover, just because I can be certain I exist today, does not mean I am certain I existed a thousand years ago or will exist a thousand years from now. You seem confused, as you keep adding more baggage to terms than is really there.

"Thus you exist and will always exist even before you were born and after you die."

Nope.

"This gives rise to the idea of immortality after we leave this objective reality when we die."

Really? How do we know that? I haven't yet claimed to even know that we die, or what happens after if we do die, and keeping your horse a mile in front of your cart doesn't seem to be very good practice.

"If this doesn't make sense to you then I wish I could explain it better."

Me too.

"This is simply your belief about what I believe. Does not mean I'm wrong or even that your wrong. My belief just answers a lot more about life than your belief."

Well, it actually does require a basketful of extraneous assertions, many of which we haven't even covered yet.

You: ""How could this be possible by just believing in absolute truth?""

Me: "By believing that our subjective perceptions and experiences are absolute."

"Again, how can you claim something is absolute when you don't believe in absolutes?"

I didn't, and that wasn't what you asked. You asked how someone could, by believing in absolute truth, believe they had objective truths. That is easy, if they believed that their subjective perceptions and experiences were absolute, then they would believe their answers were absolutely true.

"If our subjective perceptions and experiences are absolute then our subjective perceptions and experiences can never not be absolute. Thus if our subjective perceptions and experiences absolutely exist then they can never not exist. Thus the idea that non existence is impossible."

Given your answer appears to be a misunderstanding of my actual point, this is largely irrelevant.

"Exactly, and lex parsimonae tending to slice it out is an answer that isn't guaranteed to be correct. Again, all comes down to belief."

Lex Parsimonae isn't supposed to guarantee truth, only that we pick explanations with fewer assumptions.

"It seems by this statement you're claiming to have a full understanding of an absolute conscious mind and are able to say that it must exist within objective reality."

Nope, I am claiming to understand the concept of objective reality, and what it would entail philosophically. In essence, for reality to BE objective, it HAS to exist outside the influence of any consciousness. The very moment it is SUBJECT to a consciousness(no matter what flavor it is), it becomes SUBJECTive by definition, as you should already have been able to deduce from the terms used.

"If you actually do have a full understanding of an absolute conscious mind then I would have to agree with you because this would make you God. Last time I checked though, no human can even fully define consciousness let alone absolute consciousness. It seems your statement is irrational."

Only if you bend over backwards to misrepresent it and pretend it says something it doesn't say.

"Did you read what I wrote below?"

Yes, the problem is that you propose a lot of ideas, and don't provide very much evidence. It is the equivalent of pointing to something we don't know and saying "it must be god" with little more than some semantic hokey pokey.

"Now we use our subjective consciousness to view the absolute smallest things in our universe..."

We don't actually know that, if string theory is true, then we should actually expect even smaller things to exist.

"...and we observe weird behavior that shouldn't be possible in our objective reality."

What? No, we observe behavior that isn't supposed to happen in relativistic physics, but we already knew that model was screwy at that level, hence the entire purpose of quantum physics. Is this your argument? We don't know, therefore god? That isn't very helpful, as we are actually making difficult progress in this field, and NONE of it appears to point at anything supernatural or otherworldly.

"Material particles behave as if they are waves, seeming to interfere with each other when they should act as separate particles."

Nope, nope, nope. Did you miss "Quantum Feld Theory Day"?

"Could this be a result of a single creation point interacting with our objective reality."

Could it be a result of multidimensional pixies copulating?
How about a hermaphroditic cupids impregnating themselves?

We can play this game all day, but in the end, you are jumping to conclusions so hard you should take care not to reach escape velocity.

"That single point of creation doesn't need to be either a particle or a wave because it isn't experiencing time and space..."

Oh, goody, we are back to asserting things we can't even begin to support or justify!

"...but when we view it from our subjective point of view we see it as both a particle and a wave because of our restriction to time and space."

Perhaps because they only exist within time and space, we have no basis to assume they exist outside of it, so we don't.

"This could also explain uniformity in wave function in quantum entanglement."

So could my equally supported pixie or cupid hypothesis, but luckily we don't just accept ANYTHING that has the potential to explain it, only what we can support with actual evidence.

"If an absolute conscious mind that has is not restricted to time and space creates the universe, it simultaneously realizes all possibilities. In other words it has infinite knowledge."

I have to ask, as much baggage as you are packing into this misrepresentation, are you looking to go on vacation?

"When we observe the smallest particles in our universe we are observing this point of creation from our confinement to time and space."

...or, not.

"Thus when we observe this creation point we see particles acting like waves, when actually these particles were created with no reference to time and space so they don't need to be either a particle or a wave."

They never NEEDED to be either in the first place. Science is descriptive, not proscriptive, so things don't NEED to be any single thing to exist.

"Okay, so if I'm not Conscious, does objective reality still exist?"

If it is actually objective, yes. If it is truly objective, it would continue to exist without ANY conscious entities to observe it.

"If it does still exist how is it not absolute?"

Because we only believe it is objective, we don't actually know with absolute certainty that it is.

"If it is absolute, how can you claim to not be sure if absolutes exist?

I didn't say that no absolutes exist, as I don't know that, I said I can't be sure if any absolute beyond my own existence exists. The existence of one single absolute does not extrapolate to the existence of every single absolute you can dream up.

"The trouble is that I do completely understand your argument."

We'll see.

"Your argument is that absolutes may or may not exist..."

Nope, first mistake. I said that absolutes beyond my own existence may or may not actually exist.

"...but then you say it is absolute that you exist..."

Yep.

"...and that objective reality is absolute..."

Nope. I said I believed that reality is objective, I at no point said that I knew that it was.

"...yet even though you say these things you're still not sure if absolutes exist."

I don't know if any absolutes beyond my own existence actually exist.

"You however refuse to completely understand my argument which is much simpler than your's."

Uh huh, sure, yours is SOOOOO much simpler.

"Absolutes exist! There thats my argument."

Not by itself, it isn't. You forgot the metric ton of assumptive baggage you have packed in it.

"Okay, lets talk about books."

Okay.

"I read your book "Why There Is No God"."

What!? I wrote a book!? When did that happen!? And, why in the hell did I write that one? I like urban and epic fantasy novels!

"You didn't even have to ask me to read this book by the way because I decided to read it on my own when I truly wanted to seek truth."

Well, that was awful nice of you, how was it? I haven't read it, did I write it well?

"Now I'm going to ask you to read "Mere Christianity" by C. S. Lewis."

I actually have read that book, and was rather disappointed.

"If you read that with an open mind and then come back to this debate, I will have much more respect for your opinion. I'd suggest using Audible, I was able to get through a lot of content using that, it's great!"

I actually have a paperback copy 'round here somewhere... I like the smell of ink and paper.

Chriliman's picture
"You've stated that your

"You've stated that your existence is an absolute."

Yep.

"If your existence is an absolute then how can your existence not be an absolute."

"I didn't, I claimed that I couldn't know if any other absolutes even exist."

You missed the point of the question. If your existence is an absolute then how can it not be an absolute? As far as we can understand absolutes, they must not contradict. Further more if your existence is absolute then what does that make my existence?

"Why, does time not exist? The law of logic this is based off of even deals with this temporally, it states that contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time. Moreover, just because I can be certain I exist today, does not mean I am certain I existed a thousand years ago or will exist a thousand years from now. You seem confused, as you keep adding more baggage to terms than is really there."

Okay lets think about this word "time". I assume when you use the word time, you're thinking of the moment to moment experience we all have that gives us past and can give us an idea of the future. Well if you consider your own existence as absolute, but you don't consider time as absolute how can your absolute existence experience a non-absolute time? Well the best answer for this is that your absolute existence is what determines this time that isn't absolute. In other words if you didn't exist then time wouldn't exist. Considering the universe is observed to be 13.7 billion yrs old, thinking this old universe relies on you existing seems irrational don't you think? We could also think of time as subjective. If you believe you absolutely exist and this is the only absolute you believe and you can experience subjective time, then your also saying that my existence is not absolute and the only way for me to experience subjective time is if you absolutely exist first. Hmm still seems irrational.

Now, what is absolute time, well I believe absolute time can be equal to time as we experience it, but can also be 0 time. In other words absolute time can be equal to eternity, but can also be equal to a single point of action/creation with no reference to time. To further drive home this point, absolutely 0 time can never exist because it's a contradiction, however subjective time can exist. The reason I think this is because I don't think your subjective time is dependant on my existence. I also don't think absolute time is dependent on my existence, but since I must exist to realize my subjective time then it would make complete sense for an absolute existence to realize absolute time.

Its a lot to grasp I know, but once you realize that your belief of your existence being the only absolute you will see this means not only is your subjective time dependent on your existence, but my subjective time is also dependent on your existence. The only alternative is to believe that my subjective time isn't dependent on your existence and so must be absolute as well as subjective. I hope you realize this because I want my subjective time to be absolute and not be dependent on your absolute existence, it's not fair if you're the only one who absolutely exists! Tell me this makes sense and you can see why I believe what I believe! And believe me I've tried really hard to see why you believe what you believe and its just seems too irrational for me, no offense. You do have free will to believe this, but only because your existence is not dependent on my existence. In fact you have free will because your existence is dependent on an absolute existence which has allowed you have free will and you have freely chosen to not believe in this absolute existence. Still seems irrational to me.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Chriliman - "well I believe

Chriliman - "well I believe absolute time can be equal to time as we experience it, but c̲a̲n̲ ̲a̲l̲s̲o̲ ̲b̲e̲ ̲0̲ time"

vs

Chriliman - "absolutely 0 time can never exist"

cmallen's picture
Good catch. And since only

Good catch. And since only the Abrahamic god is capable of such glaring contradiction, that means Chriliman must be that god. I fear all us heathens may all be smoten, now.

Chriliman's picture
"Chriliman - "well I believe

"Chriliman - "well I believe absolute time can be equal to time as we experience it, but c̲a̲n̲ ̲a̲l̲s̲o̲ ̲b̲e̲ ̲0̲ time"

vs

Chriliman - "absolutely 0 time can never exist"

No contradiction here because absolutely 0 time is a contradiction, whereas 0 time is not.

Chriliman's picture
"Chriliman - "well I believe

"Chriliman - "well I believe absolute time can be equal to time as we experience it, but c̲a̲n̲ ̲a̲l̲s̲o̲ ̲b̲e̲ ̲0̲ time"

vs

Chriliman - "absolutely 0 time can never exist"

No contradiction here because absolutely 0 time is a contradiction, whereas 0 time is not.

Nyarlathotep's picture
You told us absolute time can

You told us absolute time can be 0, now you tell us it can't. Why don't you get your story straight before posting it...

Chriliman's picture
There's a difference between

There's a difference between absolute time equalling 0 time and absolutely 0 time. If you wanted to say that no time existed, all you would have to say is 0 time, you wouldn't say absolutely 0 time because it's a contradiction. I believe absolute time does exist, but it is equal to both 0 time and eternity. Leave absolutely 0 time out of it because it contradicts absolute time and we know absolutes can't contradict.

Travis Hedglin's picture
"You missed the point of the

"You missed the point of the question."

No, I didn't. I have firmly stated that I don't know if other absolutes exist.

"If your existence is an absolute then how can it not be an absolute?"

Redundancy does not make your arguments any stronger.

"As far as we can understand absolutes, they must not contradict."

Not in the same sense at the same time, in other senses or at a different time, they can actually contradict freely.

The dog is on the couch.
The dog is NOT on the couch.

These two statements cannot both be true at the same time, as they are mutually exclusive statements. However, with time in the mix, these statements can be true at different times.

"Further more if your existence is absolute then what does that make my existence?"

It isn't absolute to me, just as mine cannot be absolute to you. The only absolute is our OWN personal existence.

"Okay lets think about this word "time". I assume when you use the word time, you're thinking of the moment to moment experience we all have that gives us past and can give us an idea of the future. Well if you consider your own existence as absolute, but you don't consider time as absolute how can your absolute existence experience a non-absolute time?"

Because experience is subjective. Time does NOT have to be absolute for me to experience it. We all experience time subjectively on a regular basis. You ever been in that meeting that just did not seem to ever end? Ever had so much fun that time got away from you? Okay then.

"Well the best answer for this is that your absolute existence is what determines this time that isn't absolute."

If we WANT to go that route, the best answer for our experience of anything is that our existence determines everything we can't know to be absolute. However, given that we both believe in a reality beyond ourselves, we don't do that with the universe. So, why the hell should I do it for time?

"In other words if you didn't exist then time wouldn't exist."

No different than suggesting that if we didn't exist, gravity wouldn't. It is a somewhat useless assumption that adds next to nothing in the context of what we experience.

"Considering the universe is observed to be 13.7 billion yrs old, thinking this old universe relies on you existing seems irrational don't you think?"

So, now you want to change from what is absolute to what is most rational? That is a change in scope, and if we are going to use it, we must heretofore stop using "absolute" because that is not the same as "most rational". It is "most rational" to believe that an objective reality and other people exist, but it is NOT an absolute. The same with time.

"We could also think of time as subjective. If you believe you absolutely exist and this is the only absolute you believe and you can experience subjective time, then your also saying that my existence is not absolute and the only way for me to experience subjective time is if you absolutely exist first. Hmm still seems irrational."

It is "most rational" that you exist and experience time independent of my experience, but it is NOT an absolute.

"Now, what is absolute time, well I believe absolute time can be equal to time as we experience it, but can also be 0 time."

Nope. Time is not an absolute, and we do not experience it objectively. Also, 0 time is equivalent to no time.

"In other words absolute time can be equal to eternity..."

0 Time =/= eternity

"...but can also be equal to a single point of action/creation with no reference to time."

Action without time is like having surface area without space, it is a contradiction.

"To further drive home this point, absolutely 0 time can never exist because it's a contradiction, however subjective time can exist."

...thanks for agreeing? However, I feel a lot of baggage incoming...

"The reason I think this is because I don't think your subjective time is dependant on my existence."

Goody, I don't believe your time is dependent on my existence either, but that is NOT an absolute.

"I also don't think absolute time is dependent on my existence, but since I must exist to realize my subjective time then it would make complete sense for an absolute existence to realize absolute time."

...or, it could exist outside of the existence of all conscious beings, as a property of the objective reality we both claim to believe in.

"Its a lot to grasp I know, but once you realize that your belief of your existence being the only absolute you will see this means not only is your subjective time dependent on your existence, but my subjective time is also dependent on your existence."

No. My claim that my existence is the ONLY thing I can be absolutely certain of does not mean I believe that time or your experience of it is dependent on my existence. That is a very strange thing to even imply, as I haven't denied your existence or that of an objective reality, but rather admitted that I can't be absolutely certain of either of those things. My inability to be certain of things does not deny their existence.

"I am not absolutely certain of X."
"X cannot exist without me."

Look at these two statements, when you figure out the difference, we'll talk.

Chriliman's picture
"Not in the same sense at the

"Not in the same sense at the same time, in other senses or at a different time, they can actually contradict freely.

The dog is on the couch.
The dog is NOT on the couch.

These two statements cannot both be true at the same time, as they are mutually exclusive statements. However, with time in the mix, these statements can be true at different times."

The two absolutes you just stated are actually subjective truths because they can't be absolutely true because our minds can't comprehend absolute truth. If they were absolutely true the statements would be one in the same. Our minds can't comprehend absolute sameness. Our subjective minds can't define two things as absolutely the same. A subjective absolute is immediately confined by time because it is subjective.

"If we WANT to go that route, the best answer for our experience of anything is that our existence determines everything we can't know to be absolute. However, given that we both believe in a reality beyond ourselves, we don't do that with the universe. So, why the hell should I do it for time?"

But you've stated that you believe your existence can determine an absolute. The absolute you can determine is your own existence. If you believe you can determine that you are absolute, all I'm saying is yes you are absolute because I don't believe my existence is the only absolute. I believe your existence is also an absolute, along with the 7 billion or so other absolutes that live on this planet. But if there are 7 billion absolute existences on this planet that don't depend on each other to exist then all these absolute existences must absolutely exist. Unless you believe they do depend on each other's existence, in which case I shouldn't even exist because countless people have already died before I came along.

"No different than suggesting that if we didn't exist, gravity wouldn't. It is a somewhat useless assumption that adds next to nothing in the context of what we experience."

Except that your believe that you are the only absolute you can be certain of leads me to think that you believe everything depends on your existence. If you don't think everything depends on your existence then there must be other absolutes other than your own existence.

"So, now you want to change from what is absolute to what is most rational? That is a change in scope, and if we are going to use it, we must heretofore stop using "absolute" because that is not the same as "most rational". It is "most rational" to believe that an objective reality and other people exist, but it is NOT an absolute. The same with time."

Same problem, if you don't believe that objective reality and other people are absolute, then you can't say for sure if they still exist when you do not exist. It seems most rational to believe that they would still exist if you didn't exist.

"It is "most rational" that you exist and experience time independent of my experience, but it is NOT an absolute."

There you go again claiming you can comprehend absolutes. You should say it is most rational that I exist and experience time independent of your experience, but you BELIEVE it's not absolute. I simply disagree and say I BELIEVE it is absolute.

"Nope. Time is not an absolute, and we do not experience it objectively. Also, 0 time is equivalent to no time"

You BELIEVE time is not an absolute. When you say time is not an absolute, you're claiming to be able to comprehend absolutes.

"Goody, I don't believe your time is dependent on my existence either, but that is NOT an absolute."

You mean you believe it's not an absolute. You can't claim to know as fact any other absolute other than your own existence.

"No. My claim that my existence is the ONLY thing I can be absolutely certain of does not mean I believe that time or your experience of it is dependent on my existence. That is a very strange thing to even imply, as I haven't denied your existence or that of an objective reality, but rather admitted that I can't be absolutely certain of either of those things. My inability to be certain of things does not deny their existence."

So if you believe that time and my existence do not depend on you existing then if you didn't exist time and my existence would still exist. This means you must believe they are absolute.

"I am not absolutely certain of X."
"X cannot exist without me."

"Look at these two statements, when you figure out the difference, we'll talk."

"I am not absolutely certain of X."
"X may or may not exist without me."

I choose to believe that X does exist without me, therefore I choose to believe that X is absolute.

Either way all these statements are subjective.

Travis Hedglin's picture
"The two absolutes you just

"The two absolutes you just stated are actually subjective truths because they can't be absolutely true because our minds can't comprehend absolute truth."

The two statements I made aren't absolutes, they are experiential statements. Neither need be absolute to be experienced, so I am not sure where you are going with this.

"If they were absolutely true the statements would be one in the same."

Nope. If these were actually the absolute facts of reality, they would remain mutually exclusive, that is the way contradictions work.

"Our minds can't comprehend absolute sameness."

Mine can, two vanilla ice cream sandwiches of equal weight and size are identical to me, we experience sameness subjectively all the time. Your slapping the word absolute in front of it does nothing to diminish the fact that we have the experience and concept of sameness, absolute or not, so we DO actually comprehend sameness.

"Our subjective minds can't define two things as absolutely the same."

Our minds don't define things absolutely in the first place, so this is virtually irrelevant to the conversation. We can, and do, often find things to be identical.

"A subjective absolute..."

Word salad. None of the rest of this sentence even matters, because you start it off with the nonexistent.

"But you've stated that you believe your existence can determine an absolute. The absolute you can determine is your own existence."

My existence doesn't create an absolute, but because I have experience at all I can be absolutely certain that I do exist. Realizing an objective truth isn't creating it, it is realizing it. Moreover, my certainty is based on the quality of my experience, as less sentient creatures neither ponder or realize their own existence.

"If you believe you can determine that you are absolute, all I'm saying is yes you are absolute..."

It is not a belief, I can be absolutely certain that I exist. However, I cannot be absolutely certain that you exist, nor can you actually be absolutely certain that I exist. That is the point, the one you keep trying to gloss over, but I won't let you.

"...because I don't believe my existence is the only absolute."

Absolutely are not things that are believed in, they are things one can be absolutely certain of, and conflating them is a hat trick I won't accept because it is BAD epistemology.

"I believe your existence is also an absolute, along with the 7 billion or so other absolutes that live on this planet."

My existence cannot, by experience alone, be absolute to anyone BUT me.

"But if there are 7 billion absolute existences on this planet that don't depend on each other to exist then all these absolute existences must absolutely exist."

Hat trick. You believe they exist, but you can never be absolutely certain, so they are NOT absolutes by definition. The trick, as it were, has been exposed.

"Unless you believe they do depend on each other's existence, in which case I shouldn't even exist because countless people have already died before I came along."

Do I believe there are other people? Yes. Do I know absolutely that there are other people? No. Your argument is invalid.

"Except that your believe that you are the only absolute you can be certain of leads me to think that you believe everything depends on your existence."

You are conflating belief with absolute certainty, and because you are doing so, confusing yourself. Absolutes are NOT beliefs.

"If you don't think everything depends on your existence then there must be other absolutes other than your own existence."

Nope. My belief that other people exist does not magically make their existence an absolute, and trying to imply as much demonstrates your confusion on the subject.

"Same problem, if you don't believe that objective reality and other people are absolute, then you can't say for sure if they still exist when you do not exist. It seems most rational to believe that they would still exist if you didn't exist."

Absolutes aren't beliefs. My belief in other people does not make them absolutes, stop using this argument, it is utterly vacuous.

"There you go again claiming you can comprehend absolutes."

Nope, just my limitations. I cannot absolutely KNOW that you exist. That absolute knowledge that you exist would be necessary for your existence to BE an absolute to me.

"You should say it is most rational that I exist and experience time independent of your experience, but you BELIEVE it's not absolute. I simply disagree and say I BELIEVE it is absolute."

Except that beliefs aren't absolute, by definition, making your argument as flimsy as paper mache.

"You BELIEVE time is not an absolute."

An absolute isn't a belief, so what we believe is irrelevant to absolutes.

"When you say time is not an absolute, you're claiming to be able to comprehend absolutes."

I am claiming to know what it is that I can know with absolute certainty, nothing more, you are the one claiming to believe absolutes into existence.

"You mean you believe it's not an absolute."

Nope. Absolutes are not beliefs.

"You can't claim to know as fact any other absolute other than your own existence."

Yep. Neither can you. That is the facts of the matter. Our existence is the only thing we CAN know absolutely, making everything else not absolute knowledge by definition.

"So if you believe that time and my existence do not depend on you existing then if you didn't exist time and my existence would still exist. This means you must believe they are absolute."

No. I believe they are objective, you are now confusing objective for absolute, stop. Absolute deals with certainty, objective deals with their dependence.

"I choose to believe that X does exist without me, therefore I choose to believe that X is absolute."

No, you choose to believe X is objective, that does not make it absolute knowledge.

"Either way all these statements are subjective."

True, all statements are subjective, and?

Chriliman's picture
""Our minds can't comprehend

""Our minds can't comprehend absolute sameness.""

"Mine can, two vanilla ice cream sandwiches of equal weight and size are identical to me, we experience sameness subjectively all the time. Your slapping the word absolute in front of it does nothing to diminish the fact that we have the experience and concept of sameness, absolute or not, so we DO actually comprehend sameness."

You do realize that those two ice cream sandwiches are comprised of billions of molecules that are not in the same position right? Further more those two sandwiches take up different points in space making them no where near absolutely the same. They may be similar, but only in appearance. When you actually think about it, they are very very different.

""Our subjective minds can't define two things as absolutely the same.""

"Our minds don't define things absolutely in the first place, so this is virtually irrelevant to the conversation. We can, and do, often find things to be identical."

You just claimed above that your mind can define things as absolutely the same, are you trying to confuse me or are you just contradicting yourself without realizing it?

""A subjective absolute...""

"Word salad. None of the rest of this sentence even matters, because you start it off with the nonexistent."

Think again, your certainty of your existence being absolute is actually a subjective absolute. Only YOU can be certain of your own absolute existence, which mean it's a subjective absolute because I can't be certain that you exist, but I believe that you exist because I believe in absolutes.

""But you've stated that you believe your existence can determine an absolute. The absolute you can determine is your own existence.""

"My existence doesn't create an absolute, but because I have experience at all I can be absolutely certain that I do exist. Realizing an objective truth isn't creating it, it is realizing it. Moreover, my certainty is based on the quality of my experience, as less sentient creatures neither ponder or realize their own existence."

Was that objective truth there before you realized it? If yes then how is that objective truth not absolute? If no then it would require your existence first before an objective truth can even exist.

""If you believe you can determine that you are absolute, all I'm saying is yes you are absolute...""

"It is not a belief, I can be absolutely certain that I exist. However, I cannot be absolutely certain that you exist, nor can you actually be absolutely certain that I exist. That is the point, the one you keep trying to gloss over, but I won't let you."

Right, you can't be absolutely certain that I exist and so you choose to believe that my existence is not absolute. Or you just accept the fact that you can't be certain of my absolute existence and therefore you can't be sure if I even exist or not. Either of those beliefs tend to make me think that your really uncertain about whether or not anything exists, besides yourself. I choose to believe that your existence is absolute, so take that!

"It is not a belief, I can be absolutely certain that I exist. However, I cannot be absolutely certain that you exist, nor can you actually be absolutely certain that I exist. That is the point, the one you keep trying to gloss over, but I won't let you."

I believe you when you say you can be absolutely certain that you exist because I can be absolutely certain of my existence as well and so it would makes sense that you can do the same. What your saying is that you can't believe that I can be absolutely certain of my own existence because if you said this then you would have to believe in other absolutes other than your own existence.

"Absolutely are not things that are believed in, they are things one can be absolutely certain of, and conflating them is a hat trick I won't accept because it is BAD epistemology."

Hold the phone! Are you trying to tell me I can't believe in absolutes other than my own absolute existence? So you're telling me I shouldn't believe that you can actually be absolutely certain of your own existence? Wouldn't you want me to believe you when you say you can be absolutely certain of your own existence. If I didn't believe you, whats to stop me from completely disrespecting you to the point of making you feel horrible or worse? My point is that I do believe you're absolutely certain of your own existence and so I choose to treat you like I would want to be treated. It's called empathy.

"Hat trick. You believe they exist, but you can never be absolutely certain, so they are NOT absolutes by definition. The trick, as it were, has been exposed."

As I've stated from the beginning our subjective minds can't comprehend absolutes beyond our own absolute certainty of our own existence, therefore any other absolutes other than ourselves, must either be believed in or not believed in. I've never claimed to be absolutely certain that other people exist, I only choose to believe that they do because I can see, touch, feel, smell and hear them. Here again your claiming to fully comprehend the fact that other people are NOT absolute, when you've already stated the only absolute you can be certain of is your own existence, yet another contradiction on your part. Start using the word believe more and I think you'll start to realize your own contradictions more.

""Same problem, if you don't believe that objective reality and other people are absolute, then you can't say for sure if they still exist when you do not exist. It seems most rational to believe that they would still exist if you didn't exist.""

"Absolutes aren't beliefs. My belief in other people does not make them absolutes, stop using this argument, it is utterly vacuous."

Nowhere in my statement did I claim absolutes were beliefs. I'm simply claiming we must either believe or not believe in absolutes beyond our own absolute certainty of our own existence.

"Nope, just my limitations. I cannot absolutely KNOW that you exist. That absolute knowledge that you exist would be necessary for your existence to BE an absolute to me."

Right, and I choose to believe that you do exist, because I believe there is an absolutely knowledgeable entity that created you.

""You should say it is most rational that I exist and experience time independent of your experience, but you BELIEVE it's not absolute. I simply disagree and say I BELIEVE it is absolute.""

"Except that beliefs aren't absolute, by definition, making your argument as flimsy as paper mache."

Except when you say "beliefs aren't absolute", you're claiming to be able to comprehend this absolute. I believe that beliefs are absolute because I believe it does matter what we believe in end when we die, but this is just my belief.

"An absolute isn't a belief, so what we believe is irrelevant to absolutes."

This is another fundamental difference between our beliefs. I believe it does absolutely matter what we believe in life.

""You mean you believe it's not an absolute.""

"Nope. Absolutes are not beliefs."

Again, I've never said absolutes are beliefs, why are you inferring that I've said this when I haven't?

"Yep. Neither can you. That is the facts of the matter. Our existence is the only thing we CAN know absolutely, making everything else not absolute knowledge by definition."

So where does belief begin and end for you? Do you believe in anything? If your existence is the only thing you can be absolutely certain of then it would seem you can only believe in yourself. This seems like a selfish way of thinking.

"No. I believe they are objective, you are now confusing objective for absolute, stop. Absolute deals with certainty, objective deals with their dependence."

Our subjective minds can only reach a degree of objectivity, we can't reach absolute objectivity. So if you believe these things are objective and all the sudden your subjective mind goes away, well that means they must be absolutely objective to still exist without your subjective mind to realize the certain degree of objectivity.

""I choose to believe that X does exist without me, therefore I choose to believe that X is absolute.""

"No, you choose to believe X is objective, that does not make it absolute knowledge."

Yes I choose to believe that X is objective to a degree because I can't comprehend absolute objectivity. But if my mind were to go away then X would still be absolutely objective, since my mind isn't there to realize that certain degree of objectivity.

"True, all statements are subjective, and?"

We can't comprehend absolute objectivity and so we must choose to believe in it or not believe in it. We can comprehend objectivity, but only to a certain degree.

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