I am homosexual, what the Bible says

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NewSkeptic's picture
Joyless,

Joyless,

Thanks so much for your dissertation. What I got out of it was a definitive definition of a term.

You said

"You do realize that all people during that time, even the non believing pagans believed that as well, right? It was a barbaric time when people had no problem killing someone for stealing a loaf of bread or talking back. It was actually God’s people who began to hold their people to a higher standard. They are the ones who attempted to come up with some societal rules. They are the ones who said we should take care of our widows, not beat our slaves to death, etc. And eventually it would be Christians who took it even further and fought for the end to things like slavery all together. The Old Testament rules were an attempt to meet a barbaric culture where it was and take baby steps to eventually help people realize what love is. "

...which I will now adopt as a definitive explanation for the phrase...

Crock of shit.

Thanks much.

CyberLN's picture
Joy, please provide your

Joy, please provide your definition of adultery.

Joy's picture
“Joy, please provide your

“Joy, please provide your definition of adultery.”

Being married and having sexual relations with someone who is not your spouse.

Tin-Man's picture
@Joy

@Joy

What is YOUR definition of "immoral"?

Joy's picture
“What is YOUR definition of

“What is YOUR definition of "immoral?”

Morality is that which is known by all men who have the use of reason to know what is right and good vs. what is wrong and bad based on observation of the world we live in and man’s relationship with this world. Immorality would be that which is contrary to the moral law.

Tin-Man's picture
@Happy-happy joy-Joy Re:

@Happy-happy joy-Joy Re: "Morality is that which is known by all men who have the use of reason to know what is right and good vs. what is wrong and bad based on observation of the world we live in and man’s relationship with this world. Immorality would be that which is contrary to the moral law."

The color white is that which is known by all men who have the use of prisms to know what is red vs. what is violet based on observation of the the light we see coming from the rainbows in the sky under which we live and man's relationship with unicorns. Black would be that which is contrary to the color white.

Excellent. Glad we got that cleared up... *thumbs up*...

Cognostic's picture
RE: JOY

RE: JOY

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha .... "Moral Law" .... Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha .... Now I know who you are talking about!

CyberLN's picture
Is it still adultery if the

Is it still adultery if the spouses agree to have extra-marital sex? When there is no lying, cheating, sneaking around?

Joy's picture
“Is it still adultery if the

“Is it still adultery if the spouses agree to have extra-marital sex? When there is no lying, cheating, sneaking around?”

I think so. Social research shows how problematic the scenario you suggest can be. Someone inevitably gets hurt and if children are involved the hurt and damage are magnified. What you suggest is a bad idea and for good reason.

CyberLN's picture
Interesting...whether it be

Interesting...whether it be extra-marital sex, or sex between the same gender, or, I suppose any number of other scenarios, (all consenting) you seem to find it appropriate to stick your nose (so to speak) into others’ bedrooms and tell them they are wrong. How dictatorial!

Joy's picture
“Interesting...whether it be

“Interesting...whether it be extra-marital sex, or sex between the same gender, or, I suppose any number of other scenarios, (all consenting) you seem to find it appropriate to stick your nose (so to speak) into others’ bedrooms and tell them they are wrong. How dictatorial!”

We all do this. Most people would frown upon a 45 year old man getting it on with a 19 year old girl – such set ups typically receive quite a bit of judgment. We all would not hesitate to say even if two adult consenting brother and sister wanted to hook up, it is wrong. We have no problem saying a 40 year old dad should not have even consensual sex with his 20 year old daughter. We have laws that forbid polygamy, even if consenting. And most people would agree bestiality is wrong, even if the animal is a willing participant. How dictatorial!

Whitefire13's picture
One of my boys is gay. He

One of my boys is gay. He dreams of oral sex and not anal. From my understanding, some are givers and not takers. Hey... out of curiosity does “oral” sex fit the same description as “ anal” - you know - a place where the “ cock” isn’t suppose to go? If so, than garsh-darn-it, I may have sucked my way into hell.

Tin-Man's picture
@Whitefire Re: To Joy - "..

@Whitefire Re: To Joy - "...out of curiosity does “oral” sex fit the same description as “ anal” ... If so, than garsh-darn-it, I may have sucked my way into hell."

Hey, no worries. Being a duly anointed priest of The Church of the Latter-Day Dude, I have heard your confession, and you are forgiven. For your penance, perform four Hokey-Pokies, turn yourself around, and drink three White Russians. Now, my child, go forth and sin some more. Amen...

Joy's picture
“does “oral” sex fit the same

“does “oral” sex fit the same description as “ anal” - you know - a place where the “ cock” isn’t suppose to go?”

There is a degree of oral stimulation that can be perfectly fine as foreplay within a marital relationship, but when we deny the fulfillment of the sexual act to its natural end ordered to procreation we end up hurting ourselves and others. Sex becomes something where another human being isn’t even needed. It becomes a simulation of sex and more of an act of mutual masturbation.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Joy

@ Joy

So, I am amazed at your 'rules for the bedroom'....how do you plan on enforcing them?
Or do you just continue looking down your long and pointy nose at those having joyous, consensual and fun sexual activity?

Is there a specific punishment for "too much " oral stimulation? Who decides? When? Is there an alarm clock I can set so we don't exceed your limits?

How about my wife is having a period and doesn't want full sex but is randy as hell? Do I ignore her needs or do I manually and/or orally please her and get condemned for the mutual masturbation thing?

I have so many questions....

(Edit added red wings)

Joy's picture
“So, I am amazed at your

“So, I am amazed at your 'rules for the bedroom'....how do you plan on enforcing them?”

I never claimed to want to legislate anything. I think gossip and being a jerk to someone is wrong too, but I have no intention of pushing for legislation about talking behind someone’s back. If something is wrong, we should all not be afraid to speak out against it. It doesn’t mean we want to press charges.

“How about my wife is having a period and doesn't want full sex but is randy as hell? Do I ignore her needs or do I manually and/or orally please her and get condemned for the mutual masturbation thing?”

A woman’s period usually lasts about 3 days – doesn’t seem unreasonable to be able to hold off. We have to sometimes hold off when our spouse is traveling, or sick, or tired. Also, you can have sexual intercourse when a woman is on her period. To tell you the truth, it would be a lot less messy than engaging in manual or oral stimulation when she is menstruating so I truly don’t see a dilemma in your scenario.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Joyless

@ Joyless

A woman’s period usually lasts about 3 days – doesn’t seem unreasonable to be able to hold off. We have to sometimes hold off when our spouse is traveling, or sick, or tired. Also, you can have sexual intercourse when a woman is on her period. To tell you the truth, it would be a lot less messy than engaging in manual or oral stimulation when she is menstruating so I truly don’t see a dilemma in your scenario.

So it is only the "mutual masturbation" bit that offends your limited imagination is it?

I never claimed to want to legislate anything Strawman.
I asked how you intended to enforce your "rules"

If something is wrong, we should all not be afraid to speak out against it.
I think long nosed prudery is utterly repugnant and I will fucking speak out against it.

I think you are trying to claim (by roundabout and underhand means) that there is an "objective morality" that we all unconsciously subscribe to or "rebel" against.

Please, if that is your basis for your fucking ridiculous set of rules do tell us straight out instead of pissing about like a fart in a colander.

Joy's picture
“I think you are trying to

“I think you are trying to claim (by roundabout and underhand means) that there is an "objective morality" that we all unconsciously subscribe to or "rebel" against..”

What exactly is roundabout or underhanded in my posts? And yes, of course moral truth is objective. To attempt to argue the contrary is self refuting . . .

Joe: There is no such thing as truth

Sue: Is that true?

We all know and act as if moral truth exists on a daily basis and rightly so.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Joyless

@ Joyless

and yes, of course moral truth is objective.

Bollocks. Lala land. Morality is a human construct and is entirely subjective. You can see it evolving in our societies if your read any history at all.

Morality is based on man as a social animal. These behaviours can also be seen in many animal societies that show empathy and compassion, as well as homosexual behaviour.

I have seen so many high nosed twats prance in here preaching absolute morality (god given of course) and have seen them shot down in flames, wounded by their own hubris or the examples set in their own holy books.

I say again bollocks. So fuck right off with your "objective truth" its just a result of your stultified thought processes.

Joy's picture
“Morality is a human

“Morality is a human construct and is entirely subjective”

Actually a quick Google search shows amazing debates between some brilliant minds who have been unable to prove morality is subjective and in fact such opinions have actually been debunked. Even atheist hero Sam Harris admits morality is objective. He simply says that doesn’t mean we need to believe in God. Of course he also can’t demonstrate where said objective morality comes from.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Joy

@ Joy

tually a quick Google search shows amazing debates between some brilliant minds who have been unable to prove morality is subjective

Citations and links please.

You are spouting absolute bollocks and misunderstand the difference between objective and subjective.

Of course he also can’t demonstrate where said objective morality comes from. I suspect you cant back up your claims either.....

NewSkeptic's picture
Joyless,

Joyless,

That's not at all what Harris says. It order to be objective, you first have to agree on a goal. That goal setting is always subjective. Once you agree on a goal, then and only then can you begin to look at acts that affect that goal objectively.

Tin-Man's picture
@Joy (to the world...) Re:

@Joy (to the world...) Re: "There is a degree of oral stimulation that can be perfectly fine as foreplay within a marital relationship, but when we deny the fulfillment of the sexual act to its natural end ordered to procreation we end up hurting ourselves and others."

Ah-ha! Okay, I think I am now starting to see the light! So, by that statement, one can surmise that you believe the ONLY reason to have sex is for the SOLE purpose of attempting to get the female pregnant to have a child. Cool. Got it. And, of course, from THAT we can deduce that the ONLY times it is appropriate to have intercourse is during the prime period when the female is ovulating. Check. And, naturally, that would mean having sex at ANY OTHER time is morally WRONG. From that, obviously, we must certainly determine that women and/or men who are medically sterile should NEVER have sex, because it would not serve the natural order of procreation, thus causing GREAT HARM to themselves and others. Oh, wow! That makes perfect sense now! Phew! I am so glad I finally got that through my thick skull. Sometimes I'm not as dumb as I think I am.... *grinning with pride*...

Oh, but wait! It gets better! (And, I must say, this next part has given me a whole new respect for our darling Jumping-With-Joy.) It was in a later post of hers that I found this little gem...

Joy - "I actually would take a bet I probably have more sex than any of the people responding in this thread."

Well, obviously, she must be one helluva Supermom! One can only marvel as to how she manages possibly well over a dozen children or so. (Depending on her age, of course.) For she has shown herself to be such an outstanding model of self-rightous personal integrity, that we ALL can be absolutely certain that dear Joy has NEVER had sex without the intention of getting pregnant. Because for her to do so would have caused harm to herself and to others. Ladies and gentlemen of the AR, I submit to you that we are unworthy of being in the presence of such a blinding beacon of pious moral conduct.

(Edited to omit the post number, because they apparently do not maintain the initial assigned number as the thread grows.)

Grinseed's picture
Hi Joy,

Hi Joy,

You have stated that ninety per cent of gays engage in anal sex which I find very surprising. A quick blind search of my own across the internet of detailed researches reveals figures averaging between 40% to 60% and as low as 30%. There is a strong suggestion that averages rise and fall over time, and generally falls with the age of the individual, so I discount your claim that "it would be fair" to brand every, or any gay, a sodomite. While your judgement is of no consequence, your claim bears the immorality of false witness.

edited to make me look like I can spell

Joy's picture
“You have stated that ninety

“You have stated that ninety per cent of gays engage in anal sex which I find very surprising. A quick blind search of my own across the internet of detailed researches reveals figures averaging between 40% to 60% and as low as 30%. There is a strong suggestion that averages rise and fall over time, and generally falls with the age of the individual, so I discount your claim that "it would be fair" to brand every, or any gay, a sodomite. While your judgement is of no consequence, your claim bears the immorality of false witness.”

Population-based studies investigating sexual behaviors of MSM in the United States indicate that 62%–90% of MSM participated in unprotected receptive oral sex in the past 6 months and that 57%–83% of MSM participated in receptive anal sex in the past 6 months–1 year

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230803745_Anal_sex_practices_in...

In the United States, gay men are at a disproportionately high risk of getting HIV and AIDS. In 2015, 68 percent of all U.S. HIV infections affected men who have sex with men.

Scientists have estimated that the average HIV transmission rate during anal sex is 18 times higher than the rate during vaginal intercourse.

https://www.verywellhealth.com/why-do-gay-men-have-an-increased-risk-of-...

The CDC reports that homosexuals comprise the single largest exposure category of the more than 660,000 males with AIDS in the United States. As of December 2001, “men who have sex with men” and “men who have sex with men and inject drugs” together accounted for 63 percent of the cumulative total of male AIDS cases.

Young homosexual men are at particular risk. The CDC estimates that “at least half of all new hiv infections in the United States are among people under twenty-five, and the majority of [those infected] are infected sexually.”

The high rates of HIV infection among homosexual men are largely due to two behavioral factors—the practice of anal intercourse, which facilitates the transfer of the virus far more easily than vaginal intercourse, and the practice of having sexual relations with multiple sex partners, which multiplies the opportunities for both acquiring and transmitting HIV.

https://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF08L44.pdf

I stick by my original claim.

Grinseed's picture
@ Joy

@ Joy

And I still contend your "concrete example" lacks credibility, producing an unintelligible 57%-83% that is meaningless in itself and especially in the absence of any reference to the size of those "population based studies".

I can refer you to a study carried out by Indiana University and George Mason University, in 2014 using a survey sample of over 25,000 gay and bisexual men, the largest such survey in the US, up to that date, which suggested less than 40% had engaged in anal intercourse "in their most recent sexual event".

Your other references deal with the increased risk of gays contracting HIV AIDS through anal sex, which is more an issue about the spread of an infectious disease and not with actual participating numbers.

Frankly I don't trust the veracity of statistical studies. As the old adage has it, "There are lies, damned lies and statistics."

So I still reject your "concrete example" of 90%. It suggests bigoted discrimination.

Cognostic's picture
Oh, for fuck sake, AIDS is no

Oh, for fuck sake, AIDS is no longer a threat in the world today. We have had cures for years now.

Everyone Knows
* Sex with a virgin can cure you of AIDS
* A higher power can cure HIV. Yes, you can pray the sin away!

ON THE SANE SIDE OF THE PLANET---
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/04/health/aids-cure-london-patient.html

cranky47's picture
@Grinseed

@Joy

When I wore a younger man's clothes, I asked a priest about oral sex. The position of the Catholic church; no probs, as long as the sexual activity ends in intromission.

Missed that post about claiming 99% of gays etc---without supporting evidence ,it's just a claim which says far more about the poster than the gay people it has the arrogance to judge. Not judging? Then why does it matter to you what people may do in bed?

You come across as a wowser .These are usually pious humbugs who spend much of their time getting their knickers all out of focus because they suspect that some one somewhere may be having a good time.Same people are against sex too, because of their fear that it may lead to dancing,

PS " a place cock is not supposed to go" According to whom? You?

I've heard that smug claim about 'mutual masturbation' before, many times. It is my opinion that sex is good for one, and even better for two. Who put you in charge of the sexual mores and practices of others? My position that I mind my on business, as long as people behave within the law.

Joy's picture
“When I wore a younger man's

“When I wore a younger man's clothes, I asked a priest about oral sex. The position of the Catholic church; no probs, as long as the sexual activity ends in intromission.”

I believe that is exactly what I said.

“You come across as a wowser .These are usually pious humbugs who spend much of their time getting their knickers all out of focus because they suspect that some one somewhere may be having a good time.Same people are against sex too, because of their fear that it may lead to dancing,”

Wow, how original. Accusing anyone who speaks about sexual morality as themselves being sexually repressed and not enjoying sex. I actually would take a bet I probably have more sex than any of the people responding in this thread. I love sex. I think it is awesome and beautiful.

“PS " a place cock is not supposed to go" According to whom? You?”

No. According to the world we live in.
You might have heard this saying:

God always forgives.
Man sometimes forgives.
Nature never forgives.

Whitefire13's picture
Cranky... the cock comment

Cranky... the cock comment was mine but the inference of “where it’s not suppose to go” is Joy’s. You said “It is my opinion that sex is good for one, and even better for two. Who put you in charge of the sexual mores and practices of others?”

I have a great sex life because of the ability to self-satify. This includes the ability to NOT have sex when I’m not “in the mood”.

Given there are some 6 billion on earth I don’t think every sex act has to lead to “...the fulfillment of the sexual act to its natural end ordered to procreation...”. There’s more than enough of us here for God to send to hell or kill at armageddon or whatever else it plans to do...

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