Theists, define your deity(ies) once and for all!
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NOTICE HOW EMPTY OF DEISTS THIS THREAD IS??? You would think they would all be lined up to help us understand their version of God.
Yeah, where are Rat spit, In spirit, Great Hope and the like????... Suspicious...
I heard my name being called.
Dare I step up to the pulpit once again?...lol I've previously stuck both my left feet in my mouth and even though they are my feet they are not tasty...lol
The question is to identify our deity ....
For the record ...... I do not like the bible nor any writings of religions or gods. I believe they are dangerous books that should not be taken seriously. Theists argue among themselves, they should expect worse here. I have had my fair share of theists rebelling against my opinions about their god and verses. I believe that if anyone wants to believe in a god that they should find it in the real world and not in any written medium and then keep it to themselves. I prefer that people just love one another, but I've been told I'm a dreamer. In my opinion, it doesn't matter what created this world and I don't have the answer to that. Could be a scientist from a highly advanced ancient civilization for all I know that people are now referring to as god.
In short, religion has no relevance in my life.
Two things I don't start up in my real world is talk about religion and politics. They both bring the same results. Anger and yelling.
My personal experiences tell me there is something out there. I will call it an entity. I don't know what it is made of. It does not claim to be a god nor does it demand anything from me in return. Is it an alien from another planet, another dimension, a creator? I have no idea. This entity judges no one and loves everyone. It transfers no religious elements to me. I do not know it's name or if it even has one. What I do know is that since the time it appeared I have had extrasensory perceptions. They are real to me. I did not believe in these things until it happened to me. I have defined my entity to the best of my knowledge and experience. Truth is it can't be defined for I know hardly anything about it so all I have really stated is subjective and meaningless. I am not sure if identifying the things that happened help identify my entity. If so I will answer that upon anyone's request.
In Spirit: "I believe that if anyone wants to believe in a god that they should find it in the real world and not in any written medium and then keep it to themselves. I prefer that people just love one another, but I've been told I'm a dreamer."
Hear. Hear. ***tree bows since has no hat to doff and tip***
I believe everyone has the right to believe whatsoever they wish to believe. However, as you even posted in Site Support, the question is "Why should I respect your beliefs if they make no logical sense and cannot be substantiated with evidence?"
I shall also be the first to state that the possibility of an all-creating entity just may exist. I just refuse to believe the preposterous claims until I see objective hard empirical evidence. The best way to describe how I ultimately believe is...
And the greatest pleasure of them all is to see a person actually learn to see things from both sides. Kind of gives me the warm fuzzy of a teacher and student.
Love that last paragraph. And if any newcomers are interested in how I view such an entity if such existed: Darkmatter2525's The Greater Insult.
"I believe everyone has the right to believe whatsoever they wish to believe. However, as you even posted in Site Support, the question is "Why should I respect your beliefs if they make no logical sense and cannot be substantiated with evidence?"
After understanding atheists, I absolutely agree that you should not respect my beliefs and I wouldn't expect it any other way now because if you did, that would be throwing me a curve ball and re-questioning atheism, just as I'm starting to grasp it so don't even try it as a joke because it will throw me off....lol. At least wait until I have a good grasp on it all.
I'm looking at your list of .......the best way to describe how I ultimately believe is...
Why do I have such a hard time in just picking one when I can see myself in several of them? Is there just one to pick or can I fall into several of them?
I love that video link you sent. I feel like I could have written it myself.
Thanks bud !
In Spirit: "I'm looking at your list of .......the best way to describe how I ultimately believe is... Why do I have such a hard time in just picking one when I can see myself in several of them? Is there just one to pick or can I fall into several of them?"
No problem in choosing more than one. I am all five. No reason you cannot be all five either. It is my ultimate way of beliefs. I only believe in that which I can substantiate with evidence. Such as earthquakes and volcanoes being caused by plate tectonics just for one example.
And reiterating: I shall be the first to admit the possibility of an all-powerful all-creator may be possible. I just ain't seen no evidence to substantiate such claims. Yet.
@Sheldon & Sapporo
God will always reside in the place between what is testable and what is not, and in that place definition or proof is impossible. If anything god does leaves repeatable proof he would have descended to the testable, the natural, and would not be god anymore. I'm not saying he exists, I'm saying its where believers will keep him so he/it can survive the increase of knowledge.
Why do biblical literalists have a hard time with our current advancement in knowledge? Exactly because of this. He needs to move or die.
Defining would be equal to suicide of faith.
Ever heard of RPGs? Role Playing Games? In them, you usually have what is called a GM, or Game Master. In our games we had our GOD, the Gaming Operations Director.
I am A Muslim, And I am ready to define. By qouting Quran Surah Ikhlas.
Say, "He is Allah, [who is] One
Allah, the Eternal Absolute
He neither begets nor is born
Nor is there to Him any equivalent
What objective evidence can you demonstrate for it's existence?
I'm sorry man, The thread was about defining, not about evidence, that's why I defined. Secondly, by coming here, I now know how much hate and intolerance Atheists have. Very Similar to extremists, no difference . Thanks for so much bullying.
Thirdly, you ask for evidence for God to exist, but not actually are ready to see it. For me, Quran is the evidence of God, But why you would care to read it. But if you really wanna know what God is, Read Holy Quran.
Hatred, bullying, intolerance, what on earth are you talking about? All I did was ask you if you could demonstrate any objective evidence? If you don't want your beliefs to be subjected to critical scrutiny then don't espouse them in public. I also never said the thread was ABOUT evidence, however it is axiomatic that one would need to demonstrate objective evidence in order to properly define something, unless the definition is is nothing but subjective assumption of course, in which case it is meaningfulness. Like defining unicorns.
"Quran is the evidence of God"
That's just another unevidenced claim, and no book can validate its own claims, that is axiomatic.
Yes it is. Sheldon, he is correct. The thread is titled: “Theists, define your deity(ies) once and for all!” See Fahad, us atheists will usually be the first to correct when wrong. We are also the first to admit when we are wrong. Too bad theists can't/won't do the same.
Actually, it is the Religious Absolutists who have the greatest intolerance and hatred. Yes, there are some extremists Atheists, but it is the theists that practice the greatest terrorism of all since ALL religions are Pure Evil.
I have gone back and read the previous posts (notice plurality) and see no bullying. I see people poopooing on your ideas, but not bullying you. Care to restate your position?
And here is why ALL religions are Pure Evil.
I have read the Qu'ran. Three times. Have read the Bible countless times. Have read the Bhagavad Gita twice. Have read many other religious texts at least once.
Only logical conclusion on ALL religions: ALL are Pure Evil. Period. Exclamation Point!
And if you truly are capable of critical thinking, logical and deductive reasoning, and rational and analytical thought, you will see that I attacked your piece of septic flotsam religion. NOT YOU!
A previous quote:
Don't like your ideology being shat upon, then you do not have to voluntarily come here. But if you do continue coming, then expect us to point out the complete illogical fallacies of your religion.
I for one believe that religion should be completely eradicated from the human species so we, as a species, can ascend to where we can ascend without the bullshit of religion. We should be ascending to better our species instead of groveling on our knees, kissing the ass of an Illusory Sky Faerie, Bewitched Lich Virgin, Conjured Comical Spook, and a thieving, murdering, child-raping warmonger.
I bow to nothing. Not even your bullshit Allah and/or Muhammad. Both of them are the ones who need to be groveling at my feet begging my forgiveness.
"Not even your bullshit Allah and/or Muhammad. Both of them are the ones who need to be groveling at my feet begging my forgiveness."
Other than this, I think you replied very well.
And you just can't brand every religion is Pure Evil. Cause simple, even if we take neutral standpoint, every movement has it's pros and cons, so please, nothing is purely evil. I hope you understand this little thing.
What the problem is, People here are misunderstanding between criticisim and bullying/insulting. The first element of any debate is respect. If that element is not there, i think it is useless to debate.
If you Have read Quran, I want to know at where exactly you disagree, for that obviously you can make a new thread, and it will be more relevant to talk about that rather than just repeating what we believe.
There are black sheeps in every community. I can talk about so called religious terrorisim. I can talk about it a lot cause I live in Pakistan, and here, we are the biggest targets of terorisim. I know the mindsets of terrorists and how they are brainwashed very well. But ofc it is another topic for debate, separate thread would be appreciated. And also, intolerance and extremisim is present in every community, it is by nature part of human behavior. Independent of religious cause. In my opinion, religions can be used to fuel the intolerance and extremisim, but they are not the root cause. But yes in some cases, it is pure religious intolerance and extremisim, depends on the situation. But mostly, it is not.
If you start any thread related to topics listed above, Please inform me here.
Like Arakish I have read the Qu'ran several times.
Unlike yourself I have an understanding of its origins and I can assure you they are not divine.
Understand that the Qu'ran is not evidence of anything it is the claim for a particular derivative of the Abrahamic god.
It can be strongly argued that Islam is a sect of Jewry, like Christianity, only Christianity sprang direct from the Jews and Islam was based on on Jewish tales repeated in what is now the Qu'ran.
You have not been bullied at all on these pages, your ideas have been taken to task, and if you are to spend any time here I would prepare yourself for the kind of robust questioning that you will experience.
Warning: quoting the Qu'ran as evidence for the Qu'ran's divinity is a circular claim and will be dismissed. That is as valid as quoting the bible for evidence of christianity or Harry Potter for the evidence of witches.
Most Pakistanis that I have met have been very reasonable, civilised people, I am sorry that your homeland is so infested with the lice of fundamentalism. However, as others will point out, those lice depend on the Qu'ran and the Surah for their motivation and existence. All their justification is in the Qu'ran.
To Old man Shouts
Really? I mean, ok I don't have understanding of Quran, you can, you know, claim it. But you know, Quran, when explaining the past, it does explain similar stuff to Bible, but if you have read both, you must know it explains very differently. And Quran itself says, it verifies what's written in Previous books (Bible) and corrects the curroption done by people in those books. So what's the point?
And you don't need to argue, sorry, I humbly accept Islam is the continuation of Christianity. Or I should say, of Bible.
I'm not bullied? Man? I'm not saying I'm being bullied. I'm saying that Athiests are insulting. One is only Insulting when he got nothing to say.
Quran is the proof of Islam, if there is no Quran, there is no Islam.
All our justification is from Quran, from where else we take our justification? From you?
And by the way, it's not Quran and Surah, it's Quran and Sunnah. No doubt you know it better than me.
And Wow, It's amazing you met reasonable and civilized fundamentalists.
Exactly. Without this man made, often edited book, your religion would not exist. There is no evidence for the stories in the Qu'ran or for the divine origin of the Qu'ran and plenty of evidence against the divine origin.
As you agreed it is the common origin of both the the bible and the Qu'ran is the Torah. That is most definitely not of divine origin.
Why do you need justification? Certainly not from me. Why do you need to justify those actions instructed in the Qu'ran? If they were not amoral, cruel, warlike and merciless why would you need to justify them?
Yes I understand the difference between the daily prayers and the chapters in the Qu'ran. I am sorry I mistyped.
I said that I have met many Pakistanis (Not fundamentalists) and all seemed very reasonable folk who, even without the Qu'ran would behave peaceably, charitably and morally.
The Qu'ran, like the bible causes division, murder, atrocity and murder. It justifies those actions by fundamentalists. That is the problem.
There is a distinction between RESPECT OF THE PERSON. And RESPECT OF STUPID IDEAS. When a theist states "I will respect your ideas if you respect mine." What he is really saying is "DON'T CHALLENGE ME ON MY BULLSHIT AND I WILL NOT CHALLENGE YOU ON YOURS."
WAKE THE FUCK UP: Petra was Muhammad'b birth place. It took over 300 years to write the Quaran and there were once thousands of different copies. Mecca was a late addition to Islam. The earliest account that can reliably be taken to refer to Muhammad is a chronicle by the Armenian bishop Sebeos, dating either to the 660s or 670s but this contains material that sharply diverges from the traditional Islamic accounts: thus he has Muhammad "insisting on the Jews' right to the Holy Land -- even if in the context of claiming that land for the Ishmaelites, acting in conjunction with the Jews" (p. 32).
Muslims did not exist at the time of Muhammad:
Only by around 730 CE, nearly one hundred years after Muhammad's death in 632 CE according to the canonical story, do we see an account by John of Damascus make detailed reference to parts of the Qur'an, but even then he does not name the Qur'an or allude to the existence of a complete holy book for those he calls "Hagarians," "Ishmaelites" or "Saracens" (but not Muslims).
Arabic epigraphic evidence from the 7th century similarly fails to validate the canonical account. An inscription attributed to the first Umayyad caliph -- Muawiya -- in 677 or 678 CE makes reference to belief in God but gives no indication of belief in Muhammad as his messenger or the Qur'an as revealed scripture.
GO READ SOMETHING BESIDES THE QUARAN: TONS OF ACTUAL RESEARCH INTO ISLAM IS OUT THERE. YOUR RELIGION IS ABOUT AS AUTHENTIC AS JOSEPH SMITH'S MORMONISM OR PERHAPS SCIENTOLOGY.
"If you Have read Quran, I want to know at where exactly you disagree" Please give any factual Evidence at all as to why anyone in this world should take the Quaran seriously. Cite any FACT you know for certain about the Quaaran. I would love to hear more bullshit about the Quaran being the last testament of God and how holy Muhammad was without any evidence at all. Prove Muhammad wrote the quaran. YOU CAN NOT DO IT . YOU CAN NOT DO ANY OF THIS WITH FACTS OR EVIDENCE.;
Jainism has never been uses to cite intolerance. NOT ALL RELIGIONS ARE AS HEDONISTIC AND BARBARIC AS ISLAM. IN OUR MODERN WORLD YOU HAVE TO GO TO Hasidic Judaism TO FIND A PARALLEL. Modern Jews, no longer buy into the mythology of their past. The Jewish council has even admitted that the story of Moses is not historical.
PROVE YOUR QUARAN IS WORTHY OF SOMETHING MORE THAN TOILET PAPER. I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THAT.
"PROVE YOUR QUARAN IS WORTHY OF SOMETHING MORE THAN TOILET PAPER. I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THAT"
Then they say we do arguments not bullying.
I'm not respecting your ideas, I'm being tolerant to your ideas. And you are not to mine.
Omg, really are you even real?
What about Khilaft-e-Rashida?
And what you know about Quran and Islam, you didn't even know what are Muslims beliefs, just stop, I don't even wanna mess my head with a person who is ignorant of Islamic Beliefs and talks about Islam that he knows everything, and taking reference from just couple of sites.
Listen man, Muslims made one of the biggest country of it's time, it's historic evidence, I mean, just go take some history classes.
And really, I mean, really, Islam? Who killed millions in bombing Iraq, in Libya and lot more? Man, have some lessons about history, politics and religions, then I may think of talking with you.
And you people, who are you? Do you even know a word about terrorisim, I experienced it. Ok. So don't talk about it, most of you don't even know about it. None of you experienced it, just media, just what you are told by third parties, I saw it, I heard it, I experienced it.
Fahad: "Listen man, Muslims made one of the biggest country of it's time, it's historic evidence, I mean, just go take some history classes."
Bullshit. Gengis Khan created the largest country/empire this planet has ever seen. Pacific Ocean to Mediterranean Sea. Arctic Circle to the Indian Ocean. Basically, all of Asia, the Middle East, and half of Europe.
You definitely need to go back to school.
EDIT: Even the Iroqois indians ruled a confederation of indian tribes that stretched from the Hudson Bay to the Gulf of Mexico, the Atlantic Oceach to the Rockies. Still larger than anything the Muslims ever made. Go back to school.
This one is going to be long. Besides, I do so love giving ideas a good spanking. Just can't handle having to shovel the bullshit and horse hoowhee. $100 Fahad does not even completely read this treatise.
I always respond very well. It is you Religious Absolutists who fail to recoginize the True Truth. 7734, you Religious Absolutists would fail to recoginize the True Truth even if it bit you on your arse.
You, sir, are so far filling the definitions for Religious Absolutist and Apologist. Thanks.
And why not? ALL religion is PURE EVIL. Regardless. There is no other description for any ideology that refuses to accept any criticism. Again, here is the list:
Here are some questions that were posed to another Muslim at these boards (thanks be to Sheldon):
I am betting $100 you do not answer these questions because you know the answer will completely debunk your religion.
Or, if you do answer these questions, the answers will be so vague and convoluted and perplexing and torturously puzzling so as to NOT be answers at all.
ALL religions are PURE EVIL because:
This form of indoctrination, no matter its intended outcome, is actually “child abuse” in the form of psychological terrorism. All of which is immoral in any moral landscape. I submit to you, that to believe in this manner is not being human. Instead, it is just being a mindless drone obeying an imaginative figment.
And this shall not be the last time I ask this: “What the hell is wrong with you Absolutists that you must wipe the mind of what may turn out to be the next Nobel Prize Winner that may discover something so profound…?”
My Fourth Commandment of Humanity: “You shall respect the right of all people to believe whatsoever they wish to believe, even if contrary to your own. You may discuss believes, but to force your onto others is condemnable.”
Notice! It say to "respect the right of all people to believe whatsoever they wish to believe;" HOWEVER, it says NOTHING about respecting the "beliefs" themselves. All we have been doing is discussing beliefs. Ain't nobody here has ever bullied and/or insulted YOU. Just your beliefs.
And, yes, I do have mine own set of ten commandments that trump ANY thousand commandments you can come up with from that anthology of plagiarized myths and legends you call the Qu'ran.
And where is this "bullying/insulting" misunderstanding of which you speak? If you go back and point where your ideas have been ridiculed, then you are doing nothing but misleading, falsifying, misrepresenting, and committing perjury in the court of debate. If I ridicule your ideas and beliefs, bully/insult as you call it, then it is NOT bullying/insulting. It is merely debunking your idea. What you call bullying/insutling, is doing nothing but bullying/insulting us.
If you are going to do nothing but be a whiney-ass baby about us logically debunking your beliefs, then you are in the wrong place. For debunking and ridiculing your beliefs is what is going happen here.
Always remember these two FACTS (Formulated Accurately Codified Truth in Science):
Additionally, in my many, many decades of living, I have found that it is IMPOSSIBLE to write/say anything of substance without offending someone somewhere sometime. Due to this fact, I have gotten to where I do not give a god damned shit whom I may offend. If something I write/say is offensive to you (all yous), then the problem is not mine, it is you (all yous). I shall be the first to admit that I shall do me best to not offend, but, as said, it is impossible to NOT offend someone somewhere sometime.
As said, I have read both the Bible and the Qu'ran from cover to cover enough times to know that BOTH plagiarized anthologies of faerie tales can be summarized thusly:
And also summarized:
O! I understand those horrible, repulsive, obnoxious, barbaric, savage, horrendous, abominable, loathsome, repugnant, disgusting, and inapplicable, ancient, obsolete, irrelevant, and unsubstantiated anthologies of lies and bullshit plagiarized from myths and legends FAR!, FAR!, older than the Bible and Qu'ran and the first appearance of the Hebrews and Muslims. Some THOUSANDS of years older.
Religious terrorism is NOT "so-called." IT IS RELIGIOUS TERRORISM. Regardless. Period. EXCLAMATION POINT!!
Pakistan huh? Yep, you SHOULD KNOW it is religous terrorism. However, your Religious Absolutist Indoctrination Process (RAIP) [See what I did there? Another definition of rape.], prevents you from seeing the True Truth. Take off those green-colored Allah Glasses and see the world for what truly is. Quit using Islam to blind you to Reality.
Yet, by far, FAR! beyond normal, it is the religious who are the greatest intolerant extremists. Why? Well … You can argue that it is the extremists, not the doctrine. All this says to me is that you have never truly read the various doctrines. It is both. Extremists might be using it as an excuse, but it is an excuse that the religious texts readily provide. I firmly believe, and shall take this belief to my grave, that the human species would have been much better off had there NEVER been ANY form of religion. I see NO evidence of ANY gods, but plenty of evidence of religion’s harm.
And I am a lot more concerned with the welfare of my fellow human beings than I am about “offending” or “hurting the feelings” of people who choose to believe in the plagiarized anthologies of faerie tales in those obsolete, irrelevant, barbaric, savage, offensive, and unsubstantiated, immoral Bronze and Iron Age religious texts. Offended? So the fuck what! Ultimately, it is Religion that is Humanity’s worst enemy.
Start a new thresd? Why should I? You are asking the questions and asserting preposterous claims here. Here I shall address them. Wish to start a new thread? Go for it.
And here is something I posted elsewhere here on these forums. I ain’t going to go find it. You want to see the original? You go find it. I shall just repeat it as best I can here in blockquotes.
I am an equal opportunity Militant Anti-Religionist. I am against any and all religions. Period. Exclamation Point! In my wholly and honest opinion, ALL religions should be lobotomized and eradicated from the psyche of the human species. Especially the Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The Bible and Qu'ran has been re-written and re-translated and re-written and re-translated and re-written so many times that there is NO TRUTH left in them. Absolutely none. The two worst literary works ever written in all of history. All religions should be eradicated so the human species can truly ASCEND to what it is meant to ascend to. We should not be groveling on our knees, kissing the ass of a make believe deity. Religion no longer has any place in today’s, mostly, civilized society.
Your precious Muhammad was nothing but a thieving, murdering, child-raping Wannabe Warlord. Your precious Muhammad was a life form that is lower and more repugnant than septic tank flotsam. And what does Islam say about me saying what I did about your pathetic low-life prophet?
Remember, I never bullied nor insulted you. Only your ideology.
There is nothing you can say about Islam and Qu'ran that I cannot counter.
Καταλαβαινετε (Do you comprehend?)
So Arakish, I'll try to keep it short and try to answer every question in one line.
First, I'm not gonna talk about absolutists, cause they are not topic of debate. Or anything.
criticism, huh? So what you are doing? Ofc criticizing. Where does Islam says, do not criticize Islam, or Quran, or anything. It does says, do not insult. Which ofc it has write to, to me, your ideology is piece of shit, so? Now happy? Piece of garbage? Intolerant, cause that's what I faced here? Intolerance, and freaked out Athiests, never even quoted Quran once for anything wrong and saying it's wrong it's wrong it's wrong. Repeating yourself does not make you write.
ANY ideology that supports the eternal damnation and torment of non-believers is inherently evil.
It is similar to saying that if a person killed thousands of people, he should not be lifetime prisoned. And ofc they aren't prisoned too, Presidents of US living outside jails.
And man, why you even care, do you believe in it? No. It's a problem for us. That if we do sin/break law, we go to hell/jail. It's evil? I don't think so. Sorry. If you make an AI robot, and that robot decides to deny That humans created it and decides to make its own moral rules, no matter what they are, it must be stopped. Cause that's what we are, intelligent creation of God. You should be happy God giving you right of free-will, you may never give that to AI, leave going to hell.
And that low life primate stuff, it is no where mentioned in Quran, Quran says The non-believers are worst, but, We know that it says they are worst cause they were not doing good stuff. Just like any Muslim.
To Islam everyone is Equal. It is evident from the last sermon of Prophet, "All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action."
No mention of religious superiority.
Those are all your self made assumptions about Islam. You follow the extremists, so go, follow them, I don't care but I won't listen sth which is not in Islam.
Moving on to next, please stop blame game. I'm brain-washed, no, I'm not, you are the one who is brain washed.
I think, it's a good counter, you can call anyone brainwashed who does not agree to you. Our brains are made by our society, so you are brainwashed too.
Moving on to next, Religions cause extremisim? So, yes, people who followed religion did killing and stuff. But what your Athiests or secularists did? Hunger for money and for oil, destroyed Libya, Iraq, Iran, and by the way, forced Iran into dictatorship, Destroyed Afghanistan, and ofc, created terrorists in Pakistan and killed millions of innocent Pakistanis, but you know, it's ok, they were Muslims, so, it's ok. And much more.
It's not about religion, it's about people, For most part of history, people following religions remained Dominant, and to some extent still are. So, people are always fighting, you can't blame that to religion, it's in nature of man to seek Authority and respect in society and for that he do politics, he does fight, he kills, and your people did too as I mentioned. So We need to remove atheism too. It is about psychological responses of man.
And you don't tell me if it is religious terrorisim or not, as I said, I know it very well, I'm experiencing this shit since my childhood, I'm hearing these blasts since my childhood. so I know more than you. Thanks, but I know what it is.
I came here on my own? Yes, I did. So what, I came here to counter people like you, but looks like someone is being irritated when he is told he is not being tolerant to listen.
From what you posted, it seems like you are declaring war on Islam, nor Islam.
As for Bible, yes you may are truthful, but Quran, we have the exact same copies of Quran dating back to the time of Prophet Muhammad, and accurate and multiple accounts of how Quran is written.
So it is in it's pure form. Translations may vary, but original text remains same. Show me the two different original texts of Quran.
You are not the judge to decide what has place in today's time and what not, We judge, every person in the society judges if it has or not. And it certainly does have.
Thieving, murdering, child raping? I need very specific proof for that, with quotations cause you claim to have read Quran. So. With Markings and Quotations. I don't give any importance to what you think. Nor in this case, your thinking has any importance, it's evidence which has.
Basically, you can counter and justify anything you want, you can justify anything you want. So. Yes you can, but how much that counter is based on evidence, we will see.
Islam says, people like you must be dealt with arguments, if they deal with arguments, deal with them, but if they go on in streets saying stuff which is hateful content, put them in Jail, cause Islam doesn't want people like you to create anarchy and disrupts peace in society.
There's a difference in freedom of speech and freedom of insult. Islam does not give you later, not just to Islam, but to any other religion in Islamic state, you deal with arguments, not with hateful content. And by the way, Islam first introduced the term, Freedom of Speech but ofc in Arabic.
And About that whinny-ass baby, it tells what morals and ethics you have. Thanks. But Don't show me your morals.
About all the insult you did to me, no response.
If you are concerned about wellfare, go do charity, by coming here, you are not doing any wellfare.
Always remember these two FACTS (Formulated Accurately Codified Truth in Science):
You are the one who came here. We did not force you to come.
Only YOU can give anything the power to offend YOU!
Looks like someone doesn't want to be taught that he is not being good baby.
Sat, 04/13/2019 - 15:56
Another long one. But you asked for it.
Write a damned long treatise if you wish. I'll still read it and dismantle and debunk and shred and bankrupt and destroy and annihilate and show your religious beliefs for the Pure Evil they are.
And this is where you are Totally and Utterly WRONG! It is because of Religious Absolutists and the Apologists, like yourself that makes religion the Pure Evil it is. When it comes to ANY discusion, debate, argument about religion, it shall ALWAYS be about the Religious Absolutists and the Apologists making religion the Pure Evil it is. Hell, you do not even need them to make religion Pure Evil, religion is Pure Evil just by having been thought by fallible megalomaniacal psychotic sociopaths. Micheal Sherlock summed it up greatly, "Religion is not merely a tool to oppress the masses, it is a self perpetuating scam that leads the masses to oppress themselves. Someone blinded to the truth, shall never see the True Truth.
Just what the hell does the Oceania Football Confederation (Ofc) have to do with any damned delusion you are trying to write?
"your ideology is piece of shit" Mooooommeeeeee! This mean ass Muslim said my Ideology is a piece of shit. Waaaahh!
"Piece of garbage?" And look who resorts to ad hominem and insulting the person, not their ideas.
Yep. English ain't you language. The word write above should be right, as in correct. And of course I am correct. I do not need you to confirm such. But, thanks and kudos.
"[The Qu'ran] does say, do not insult." And as I have said, I will insult ANY and ALL religions equally. Did I not say I am an Equal Opportunity Militant Anti-Religionist? I shall insult ANY religion I fell like insulting. However, what you call insults, I call criticism. Nasty criticism for a nasty PURE EVIL ideology. Remember, you voluntarily came here and presented your fallacious and fictitious beliefs. And I am here to tear them asunder. Only YOU can give anything the power to offend YOU! As I have said, if you find my ideology offensive and insulting as I find your Islamic beliefs, then the problem is yours. NOT mine.
By the way, mommy said mine may be a piece of shit, but yours is a whole turd. ***sticks out tongue with scrunched face*** Nyaah!
What the fuck does this have to do with anything? Christians and Muslims have killed, murdered, raped, tortured, terrorized, mutilated genitalia, oppressed, persecuted, discriminated, committed genocidal ethnic cleansing on the human species more than ALL OTHER IDEOLOGIES COMBINED!! Go back to school and study true history.
Robot with AI? That is the most ridiculous and moronic analogy I have ever seen used. Are you pretending to be that thick? Or …
God ain't done anything. Men have created nothing more than a horrible, monstrous thug created by fallacious men who were driven by nothing more than their megalomaniacal psychotic sociopathic mentality. Here is a project for you. I have done this with the Bible. I was going to do it to the Qu'ran, but just doing the Bible was bad enough.
God's Nastiest Turds
Of course, being a Muslim means you probably burn Bibles, but if you do have one, just take a look.
And that one thing Richard Dawkins said in his book can be applied to Allah of the Qu'ran also: “Arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction; jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving, control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
Robert A Heinlein once said (paraphrased) "Men never create gods superior to themselves. All god created by men have the manners and ethics of a childish, spoiled brat.
This statement is full of bullshit, I am going to need a bulldozer. Hey! Tin-Man!! You still have that dozer blade attachment?
"And that low life primate stuff, it is no where mentioned in Quran" Does not need to be. Humans have a common ancestor with the other primates. Then again, the Theory of Evolution is just a theory, right? Thick.
So ALL non-believers are the worst because none do any good? Neutron star, dude. Neutron star.
And here is a quote made by a Jew: "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But, for a good person to commit evil atrocities, it takes religion." — Steven Weinberg.
Everyone equal in Islam? HORSE HOOWHEE! Damit I wish you would quit dumping your brain diarrhea all over our beautiful home. Ain't no one equal in Islam. Ain't no one equal in any religion. If equal, then why are there Muslims of higher ranks and priveleges within the religion and the government? If everyone is equal, there would be NO! ranks. Think Critically if you can.
There is no such thing as equality in ANY religion. NONE! ALL are exclusive. Not one has ever been inclusive. EVER! By being exclusive (us verses them), all religions deem their followers to be superior to all others, especially non-believers. To say otherwise is to speak in lies. What is the penalty for lying in Islam? Same as the Bible, to be stoned to death.
As far as ALL of humankind originating with just two humans, you truly are deluded are you not? Do you not realize the amount of incest that would have to be done causing the demise of the human species. There would not have been enough genetic diversity for the human species to have come from only two individuals. There was a science journal paper I read some 30+, 35+ years ago. In that paper, geneticists proposed that the MINIMUM number of humans required to repopulate the species would be 24, 15 females, 9 males. Each female would be required to have a child by a different male each time, having at least three children, but not necessarily required to have 9 children. It would be circumstances which would determine how many children each woman would, besides the woman's choice, which still trumps all. Meticulous eugenic records would have to kept so as to get a good genetic diversity through the children, and their children. Perhaps by the fourth or fifth generation, the eugenics could be relaxed somewhat. Think Critically about that, if you can.
Yes there is. It'll just take me quite some time to find it. I way more versed in that unholy and offensive book known as the Bible. With the Qu'ran, even you already admit I have more knowledge than you: "OK I don't have understanding of Quran." Then go read it.
No. Not self-made assumptions. Just you assuming I am assuming. I spent over 30 years traveling the Levant, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Turkey, amongst others. OVER 30 YEARS! These travels were part of my research into proving religion to be true, instead proving it is the biggest lies to ever be created in all history. I was actually trying to prove religion true because from my scientific viewpoint, I wanted to know why so many people would believe in something that cannot be proven. Instead, all those years were spent for nothing. Well, no nothing. All those years of research gave the ammunition needed to show that all religions are lies created by megalomaniacal psychotic sociopathic men. Not one religion has ever been proven true. Not one.
I read the Qu'ran at least twice, maybe three, maybe four times, cover to cover. From what you have posted thus far, you have shown that you have NEVER read the Qu'ran. Your are only going on what others have told you in your childhood, blinding you to the True Truth.
I follow only extremists? Never. But I have gone chasing after hurricanes, tornadoes, and erupting volcanoes. Kind of makes me a stupid jack ass, huh? As for me following religious extremists, you really need to learn how to Think Critically. Why would I go after a bunch of deranged, insane, psychotic, Muslimic loons? That is so full of bullshit. Besides, ALL Muslims are extremists.
Do you even have an inkling of an idea of how many YouTube videos there are of just the normal citizenry beating assumed apostates to death? Stoning them to death? Attacking them with knives and swords? Sometimes shooting them to death? Beheading them? Choking their children to death because of apostasy? Sometimes burning their already dead bodies? And that is just the normal citizens. Fuck the extremists. Every Muslim citizen already is.
What blame game? Need more input.
No, you are not brain-washed. You are deluded through your own self-perpetuated suppression of the mental capabilities to think critically, use logical and deductive reasoning, and use analytical and rational thought. This is not to say religious persons are not intelligent, just that the RAIP they are put through teaches them to not think and accept the religion through blind faith. We have RAIPed you, believe as we say, or be put to death. Remember, death is the ONLY sentence for apostasy.
Again, I reiterate. Your position is dishonest because you are not open to the fact that you could be wrong. You won’t admit when you are wrong. You believe what you do for no reason because you cannot produce objective hard empirical evidence. The thing you are promoting is not even possible, and it is a fallacious logical contradiction as well. So you believe impossible nonsense for no good reason other than you want to use that as your defense that you are being unreasonable.
Religion IS extremism. Religion is also a delusion. The very definition of delusion is, "the belief in something that cannot be proven and has been evidenced to the contrary." You need to seek mental help with that delusion.
When are you going to learn reading comprehension?
You religious people for the last 3000 years have done nothing but: Murdered, Raped, Tortured, Lied, Extorted, Sacrificed, Ravaged, Swindled, Exploited, Plundered, Abused, Coerced, Pillaged, Tormented, Harassed, Rampaged, Insulted, Endangered, Threatened, Oppressed, Persecuted, Terrorized, Mutilated Genitalia, Enslaved, Molested and Raped Children, Corrupted, Committed Ethnic Genocidal Cleansing.
Want to know what would still be happening today? Even in "western" culture? If us Rational Free Thinkers had not risen against you Religious Absolutists and gotten laws passed prohibiting such, you Religious Absolutists would still be: Murdering, Raping, Torturing, Liing, Extorting, Sacrificing, Ravaging, Swindling, Exploiting, Plundering, Abusing, Coercing, Pillaging, Tormenting, Harassing, Rampaging, Insulting, Endangering, Threatening, Oppressing, Persecuting, Terrorizing, Mutilating Genitalia, Enslaving, Molesting and Raping Children, Corrupting, Committing Ethnic Genocidal Cleansing. Only problem is, you are still doing it today. And, this has become the norm in Muslim countries.
I cannot blame ANY human arocities on religion? Yes I can. Every conflict that has arisen for the last 3000 years is due to religion. If you say it is political, then you are truly delusional and schizophrenic. I would also say you are dissociative. You are suffering from a very severe case of RSTD (Religious Stigmata Traumatized Disorder). Damn shame. I see this mental disorder and disease in all Muslims. Real damn shame. So many otherwise normal persons made into fanatical extremists. Damned damn shame.
As for atheists killing, you need to dig up some objective hard empirical evidence. Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat.
ALL TERRORISM IS RELIGIOUS BASED. Period. Exclamation Point!
There is no other basis for any terrorism.
I am not listening about being tolerant? And this coming from perhaps the most bigoted religion to ever exist in all of history? I am not tolerant? Go look in the mirror, boy.
I AM DECLARING WAR ON ALL RELGIONS. What part of "Equal Opportunity Militant Anti-Religionist" do you not understand? Hell, even that is an acronym: EOMAR.
I have been at war against all religions my whole life. Why? Because I see no good in any religion. I have NEVER seen any good in any religion. All I have ever seen coming from any religion is persecution, discrimination, bigotry, intolerance, violence, hatred, injustice, prejudice, murder, oppression, exile, abuse (both physical and mental) …, fuck I could keep going. All religions are Pure Evil. How can I say this any more clearly? As I said above, all religions were created by fallacious humans who were megalomanical psychotic sociopaths. Pure Evil. And only those of the flocks who demonstrate they are also megalomaniacal psyhotic sociopaths are allowed to receive the greatest priveleges and rank. Pure Evil.
Here are the definitions I am using to define what I mean by evil: 1) morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked. 2) harmful; injurious. Perfect definitions for religion. Any religion.
Not! If that is so, then why all the fucking hadiths? All the surahs, or whatthefuckever they are called? The Qu'ran has been re-written so many times, and has had so much added to it, there is such thing as an original copy. The Qu'ran has no truth in it. Never has. And the Qu'ran has just as much evil in it as does the Bible and the Torah and the Talmud, especially the Pure Evil that began throughout the entirety of the Middle East and western Asia. Then again, what could be expected from a bunch of ignorant, goat-hearding, savages?
I am the judge of all that affects/effects my person. I have the right to judge everything. Including you. However, I cannot state my judgment of you for it would get me banished.
"And it certainly does have." What has what? I know you sure ain't got it.
I have the right to judge anything everything something nothing. If you think I do not have the right judge anything, let's just say I cannot say what I want to say. I have every right to judge whatsoever I wish to judge. Otherwise, I have exquisite directions as to where you can put your beliefs about such.
Not in the Qu'ran. In many, many other artifacts. Your precious Muhammad rampaged all over what is currently now known as Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Iran. He slaughtered wholesale peoples who would not believe the plagiarized bullshit in the Qu'ran. Go look up what he did in Medina where he first started with his bullshit. Everywhere Muhammad went, he forced the Qu'ran on the people, or die. That has been the whole premise of the Islamic beliefs ever since Muhammad got rejected by the Jews in Medina. Still is today.
Do you honestly think your thieving, murdering, raping, child molestor of a hero would put such things in that unholy text he supposedly wrote? All those nasty things I listed above, also describes that unholy devil you call Muhammad. Here, I list them again. Your Muhammad Murdered, Raped, Tortured, Lied, Extorted, Sacrificed, Ravaged, Swindled, Exploited, Plundered, Abused, Coerced, Pillaged, Tormented, Harassed, Rampaged, Insulted, Endangered, Threatened, Oppressed, Persecuted, Terrorized, Mutilated Genitalia, Enslaved, Molested and Raped Children, Corrupted, Committed Ethinc Genocidal Cleansing after his own "self-worship" in that cave. ***wink*** ***wink***
Everything I state is based on evidence. You simply refuse to accept it due to that RAIP you have gone through.
Actually, the Qu'ran says people like me are "to be put to the sword (killed)." Actually it says something like (paraphrased): "when the forbidden time has passed, you are to kill the idolators (infidels, non-believers, etc., etc.), taking no prisoners when you besiege them and ambush them." Pure Evil, boy. Pure Evil.
And you said, "cause Islam doesn't want people like you to create anarchy and disrupts peace in society." There is only one problem with this. In societies where people are "like" me, they are the happiest, most peaceful, and crime-free societies on this planet. Obversely, in societies where people are "like" you, they are the worst possible places for any human to live, regardless of their beliefs. Go look it up. Before you make assertions, boy, you had better make damn sure you are correct. Else I shall make you look the buffoon you are trying damned hard pretending to be. Quit pretending. Do some actual research into these preposterous assertions you are making. I guarantee if you did some true, real research, you would find I am correct.
Yep. There is a difference between Freedom of Speech, Freedom to Insult, Freedom to Criticize. Me, I am just practicing My greatly earned (through military service) Freedom of Speech and Freedom to Criticize as I wish. I'll say it again since you cannot seem to get it into that Vibranium-Reinforced Concrete Skull of yours. If anything I write/say is considered to be an insult and offensive to you, then that is your problem. NOT MINE! Only YOU can give anything the power to offend YOU!
Fahad, you have definitively proven on adage I have always said about most Religious Absolutists. "Most are incapable of comprehending reality and truth."
That is spelled "Whiney-Ass Baby." Whinny is the sound a horse makes.
“And About that whinny-ass baby, it tells what morals and ethics you have. Thanks. But Don't show me your morals.” Again, with the ad hominem. Another adage I have said about most Religious Absolutists. "Most cannot defend their faerie tales and shall always resort to ad hominem attacks."
What insult did I do to you? Either prove it, or admit you are wrong and just told a lie.
A list of how one can spot a Religious Absolutist and/or Apologist. They only need match ONE.
There are probably more, but I ain't had time to think of them.
Done did. Probably did more welfare work in 1988 than you shall do your entire life. I have done so much charity work … For ten years, I and my family and my workers (landscape architect business) did a pig-cooking, four times a year, for the homeless and less fortunate. And want to know something? I am fairly certain I got much better warm fuzzy in my heart for doing this, than if I had done it with the baggage of religion. Religion rots everything, especially human hearts.
“If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.” — Albert Einstein, Jewish Theoretical Physicist. And since everything all Christians and Muslims do is because they fear punishment and hope for those 72 virgins, Christians and Muslims are a sorry lot indeed.
Yeah, it gets tedious to keep repeating oneself to a person who refuses to learn anything. Look at how times I have to repeat myself in this treatise.
Κανενα προβλημα. (Not a problem.)
Any time you need a good spanking … I'll be here.
And a last note. I wish I had the money to come to Pakistan so I could say all this to your face. Unlike most persons on the WWW, I post exactly what I would say to you FtF.
"Secondly, by coming here, I now know how much hate and intolerance Atheists have. Very Similar to extremists, no difference . Thanks for so much bullying."
Do you need a moment, maybe a napkin to dab away the tears? If you wish, I could provide a link to emotional counseling so you may get over this horrific trauma. I hope you understand my satire, because sit back for a moment and attempt to digest this ....
How would I be treated if I was in your nation and it became common knowledge I was an atheist? Would I be receiving valid death threats? Would I be arrested, maybe even tortured or executed?
You enter this atheist forum, knowing full well exactly what this was. You get less than gentle treatment and you feel so bad? So a few harsh words and less than gentle treatment and you are unhappy?
Just remember, atheists get treated very poorly in real life, something I hope you never experience. Because we are the ones who get murdered and tortured in real life.
With all due respect Fahad, you just described a unique rock. Is Allah the Hope Diamond?
Can you see hope diamond? If yes, then it is not. Cause One of the characteristic of God is that it is not present in any dimension, he created this universe, and he is not part of this universe, therefore, you can't see.
For evidence of God, as I mentioned early, read Quran, I could have been athiest if it wasn't for Quran. So, I can only say that. Quran is the miracle of God and the evidence of God.
Fahad, the original post requested that your gods be defined, and not with "vague, non sensical verbiage".
I personally said that "theists should define observable properties that are unique to their god.": that is true whenever a person gives a definition of a thing.
With respect, the referencing the Quran as proof of god is the very definition of a circular argument.
Stating what something is not, is not defining anything. If I stated it did not have eight legs, am I describing a human being, a palm tree, or an elephant? This is why atheists request a specific definition, not just a vague, "it is not this, it is not that, and you can never examine this deity".
Logically and rationally, if something does not exist in this known universe, it does not exist.
You have stated that you know characteristics of your god. I have a question, which is "why does your god allow children to suffer from terrible diseases"?
If you are saying, You wanna physical proof of God, like how he looks like, and how is he, It is well within the verse, There is nothing like him, and therefore, we can not give that definition, God Physically, in this universe, in physical body, does not exist. Simple.
Here, the argument about the existence of God is not what's his appearance or by body he is, the argument is, does he exists? What's the proof of his existence?
"why does your god allow children to suffer from terrible diseases"?
I'm sorry, I don't understand what specifically you mean by this. Are you saying why God created diseases?
Or you are referring to some teachings of Quran or sth?
Secondly, The reason I use Quran as proof of God, or Allah you can say, is cause of one thing, When I was having same troubles in my mind years ago, And I almost left Islam, ofc without reasoning about stuff in Quran and Islam generally, just going with so called neutral definitions, I read Quran, and I found sth, I found that, there were things, things which is not possible for a person of 7 century to write, leave alone one person, even for multiple persons, not just philosophical stuff, other things, which were purely scientific and are consistent with established science today. The biggest problem I faced was evolution, and yes, I got rid of this problem, by proving that Quran actually supports evolution, and Understanding that mostly Islamic scholars are using verses from Bible to prove Islam reject evolution. But, to be honest, really, this thread was simple defining. I defined.
And after that, I think i have better understanding of how things affect the society in general. And the movement of atheism is not affecting very good. It is creating more problems than it solved. But ofc, omg, it is another topic.
Can anyone choose proper topic to discuss, topics about what makes religion bad, rather than saying they are just bad.
Fahad, you wrote, “And the movement of atheism is not affecting very good. It is creating more problems than it solved.”
1. In what ways do you think atheism is ‘not affecting (society) very good”?
2. How can atheism cause more problems than it solved? Atheism does not try to solve any problems since all it exists of is a rejection of a single assertion.