Is the God of The Bible just?
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Beleevur responds to Diotrephes Wed, 09/27/2017 - 23:16
Diotrephes said: Why do you believe that the Israelites/Hebrews/Jews got it right with their ethnocentric homicidal maniac deity and everyone else got it wrong with their other gods?
Beleevur says: It must be remembered that there is one race, that is the human race. God did use the nation of Israel to destroy certain groups or you could say families of people. Nations are large families. God commanded Israel to destroy these nations, women and children included, These nations were worshiping false Gods. Gods who moved these nations to sacrifice their infant children on their altars (these gods seemed to crave the blood of the most innocent of all). These nations were despicably wicked, almost completely over taken by evil. There were times when Israel disobeyed God and kept the woman and children alive to be their servants and they even married some of their women. Many times when Israel disobeyed Jehovah (The one true Creator of all things) and didn't destroy all of the people including the women and children, then the Israelite's began worshiping the god's of these people and they began to offer their children on the alters of these false gods (which were spiritual entities that came from the 1/3 of the angels that rebelled against God) burning them to death to appease these false gods and to receive from them what these gods offered, which consisted of (among other things) sensual pleasure that the worshipers of these Gods experienced during the rites and ceremonies these gods led or inspired them to engage in, in places the bible calls "groves" or "high places". These gods led their worshipers in the most despicable acts of debauchery one can imagine. There are many other practices to numerous to name that I could refer to that these pagan deities inspired their worshipers to engage in. These deities had an irredeemable hatred for the one true God & his people Israel, which included not only Hebrew people but any who chose to join themselves to Israel.
One might ask why did God allowed people to become so despicably wicked? Couldn't he have stopped it? Why did he allow these "evil spirits", which were what the false gods were, to rape the souls of these people and turn them into the monsters they became, to essentially do the bidding of these evil spirits? I'll try to explain.
When Satan (the most powerful of all of Gods created beings) rebelled against God, wanting to be higher and greater than God, he led a third part of the angels with him, in rebellion against God. God couldn't allow them to remain in heaven so they were cast to earth. After this God created Adam and Eve on earth from the dust of the ground. There was a reason that God couldn't just destroy these rebel angels, this had to do with a covenant God had with these angels. God can't break his word. But he couldn't allow them in heaven (Gods realm) any longer, disrupting its peace and harmony. But in a greater sense they couldn't even be in Gods universe. Casting them to earth was the first step toward eliminating them altogether. He intended on using Adam and Eve to do this. God had to use beings possessed of free will to defeat the rebelling angels, to maintain his justice. The devil went right to work to disrupt Gods plan by seducing and beguiling Adam and Eve. Leading them in the same rebellion against God as he did the third part of the angels. Adam & Eve were different then the angels who had rebelled.The scriptures say that humans (including Jesus) were made a little lower than the angels.
6 But one, in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visit him?
7 You made him a little lower than the angels, you crowned him with glory and honor, and did set him over the works of your hands: (Hebrews 2:6-7)
16 For truly he (Jesus) took not on him the nature of angels, but he took on him the seed of Abraham. (Jesus was flesh and blood like Abraham)
17 For this reason in all things it was necessary for him (Jesus) to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to help them that are tempted.(Hebrews 2:16-18)
The differences between humans & angels was not only a matter of rank but of a number of other things, which cannot be here expressed, completely, due to length.
Many of the people of the earth were almost completely controlled by these evil spirits, they had to be destroyed or changed, being endowed with free will God couldn't force them to submit to him or even cry out to him for help. God did all he could to save all of the people of the earth, he gave them every opportunity. Many, most, became so corrupted and evil that their destruction was necessary to save human kind or human kind would have self destructed.That was Satan's goal, to destroy the offspring of Adam and Eve that God was using to redeem or save human kind from Satan. The eternal destiny of all of these people that God destroyed is not completely known, but what ever God does with them will be just. God responded by setting in action the redemption of mankind. Which was ultimately accomplished by Jesus the Christ. Satan having corrupted Adam and Eve, thus by inheritance corrupted all of their off spring as well. But in the course of time God brought Jesus on the scene. He was God's actual son, he had no human father, thus was not tainted with sin (moral corruption, rebellion against God etc.) Here I give the account.
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, YOU THAT ARE HIGHLY FAVORED,THE LORD IS WITH YOU, BLESSED ARE YOU AMOUNG WOMEN.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary, FOR YOU HAVE FOUND FAVOR WITH GOD.
31 And, behold, you shalt conceive in your womb, and bring forth a son, and shall call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever, and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost (The spirit of God) shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you, THEREFORE ALSO THAT HOLY THING WHICH SHALL BE BORN OF YOU SHALL BE CALLED THE SON OF GOD
36 And, behold, your cousin Elisabeth (the mother of John the baptist), she has also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
38 And Mary said, BEHOLD THE HAND MAID OF THE LORD, BE IT UNTO ME ACCORDING TO YOUR WORD And the angel departed from her.
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto you Mary for your wife: for THAT WHICH IS CONCEIVED IN HER IS OF THE HOLY GHOST
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife.
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son and he called his name Jesus.
You'll note in Luke 1:38 Mary said, BEHOLD THE HAND MAID OF THE LORD, BE IT UNTO ME ACCORDING TO YOUR WORD. This is a key. Mary had special characteristics, (see Luke 1: 28 & 30) all of which are not known, none the less she was specially prepared for the role of giving birth to the actual Son of God, a sinless man (the second Adam). She also had to consent to filling that role of her own accord, she did so when she said to the Angel of the Lord "BE IT UNTO ME ACCORDING TO YOUR WORD". Had she not believed and consented to the words of God's angel Jesus could not have come thru her. God had bound himself by his own words to certain conditions which he himself could not violate, this is why things aren't as simple as they might appear to us. Many of the conditions that God bound himself to, we do not have specific knowledge of. For instance the covenant he made with the angels. The Holy Angels in heaven were different then human beings in many ways.They didn't have reproductive abilities. They weren't flesh and blood. Some passages of scripture makes it sound as if they didn't have free will, others makes it sound as if they did.The list go's on. When delving into these particular matters we are coming to a place where there are things that are past finding out. Things that God choose not to reveal to most humans, but perhaps only a select few. Other matters God does not divulge to any humans at all.
Paul said: By one mans disobedience (that is Adam's) many were made sinners, so then by the obedience of one (that is Jesus) many shall be made righteous. (Romans 5:19) It was unjust for God to allow the sin of one man to corrupt and condemn any other, as Adam's sin did to all of human kind. God justified this by allowing the righteousness of one man, that is Jesus, to be imputed unto to all who believe. If you ask for faith in Jesus, God will give it to you, and God will look on you as if you had lived a perfectly sinless life, like Jesus did. Is this the end of the story? No its only the beginning
One other thing I should add is we know that Adam and Eve became sinful by the evil influence of the serpent in the Garden of Eden. The serpent seduced and beguiled them. But what brought about the rebellion of Satan? The scriptures only tell us that "evil was found in him" (Ezekiel 28:15 KJV) and nothing more, they were a higher order of being and due to this they may have been privy to more and there for responsible for more.
what a disgusting fantasy
Nyarlathotep: You may believe that what I said is not true. But do you know It's not true? I spelled out my current convictions. It could be that they are not altogether accurate. I'm prepared to adjust them to the truth as it becomes available to me. Theology is one discipline science is another. Theology is the study of God (and the spiritual), his nature and faith in him. We take in all the knowledge we can about God and the spiritual via our sensory perceptions, and spiritual capacities process that with our minds and our spiritual capacities (through observation, discernment and even experiment) and draw conclusions. Science is the study of the physical. We take in all information we can about the physical via our sensory perceptions, process that with our minds (through observation and experiment) and draw conclusions. I am convinced that both of these disciplines are valid and truth can be discovered via each of them. Looking to both of these disciplines, has the potential to give greater insight then looking to only one. It must be remembered that since the people exercising these disciplines are imperfect, errors could and undoubted will be made in the drawing of their conclusions. So both should be prepared for that inevitability and be willing to reexamine their conclusions as it becomes evidently necessary.
So let's see...God broke one of the Ten Commandments multiple times.
There is never a case where all the people of a nation are wicked, yet you admit God killed indisciminately.
If you're a true Christian, please learn the difference between alter and altar.
Angels...show me one. Literally, show me one.
Do you really think we atheists give a crap about you spouting Bible passages? It's a book we don't believe in. Honestly, you're so dense.
Did I commit a typo? Please forgive me. I'm sure you have never committed one. There be more typos to come no doubt, please keep me apprised, I'd appreciate the help.TYVM. Which commandment did God break multiple times?
@beleevur: "Which commandment did God break multiple times?"
Well he wasn't married to Mary when he made her pregnant. That's adultery. He killed everyone in the world except Noah's crew, he killed everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah except Lot's family, and he killed Lot's wife. He coveted the land of the Canaanites and incited the Israelites to take it from them through violent conquest.
According to the fairy tale people will judge angels.
1 Corinthians 6:3 (NKJV) = "Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?"
Yahweh (the God of the Hebrews and the God of the armies) has a lot of evil angels man will judge and toss into the lake of fire. So if man will judge angels for their evil deeds why shouldn't man judge Yahweh and punish him for all of the evil he has done?
Let me start with the flood. It was an act of redemption not a merciless slaughter. Had God not intervened the human race would have self destructed. God saved the human race thru the flood.
beleevur: "It was an act of redemption not a merciless slaughter."
How was reducing humanity to a small cluster of incestuously breeding couples an act of redemption? Was every person outside of Ark sinful, even in the babies? It all sounds pretty merciless to me.
But why are why even discussing this plagiarized myth? Geology and climate science provide no mechanisms that could trigger a global flood above the height of Mt. Everest, or indeed remove the water afterwards. Genetic science shows that were a lot more than a dozen or so people around in the period when the flood is supposed to have happened.
@beleevur: As I stated before , I may be interested in your excuses for your sky fairy's behavior or maybe not. Depends on your replies. However, if your god wants to explain itself it can. I assume it does need your limpid attempts at explaining it's actions?
beleevur: " Had God not intervened the human race would have self destructed. "
How did you come by this information?
By this: And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6: And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7: And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repents me that I have made them (Genesis 6: 5-7) And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence through them, and behold I will destroy them with the earth. (Genesis 6:13). Had God not destroyed all these people, they would have destroyed each other. Only Noah and his family were not completely taken over by these spirits of violence. Mankind has nearly destroyed himself despite God having cleansed the earth of these early corruptions. He intervened at the tower of Babel as well and through out history.
beleevur: Is that an eyewitness account?
I believe it is an accurate historical account that was recorded by human beings, who believed and understood it to be true. It was recorded by those who witnessed it or it was passed down orally and eventually written down.
beleevur: Your belief is not evidence of eyewitnesses to the Noah Fairy tale.
chimp3 said to beleevur: Your belief is not evidence of eyewitnesses to the Noah Fairy tale.
beleevur responds: I believe there were eye witnesses to the flood and the stories got passed down an eventually were written down. You believe it was a fairy tale, do you have evidence that it was a fairy tale? It works both ways right?
We should test the historical reliability of the scriptures by the same rigorous criteria that we apply to all historical documents. The test to determine the reliably of the biblical documents and other ancient documents are internal evidence, external evidence and bibliographical test (Chauncey Sanders, associate professor of military history, The Air University, Maxwell Air Force Base, Montgomery, Alabama. In his An Introduction to Research In English Literary History. (you should look into these). These test should be applied to the biblical documents and other ancient documents to ascertain their credibility. I'm familiar with the use of these test as regards the N.T. accounts but not so much the O.T. accounts. Have you looked at the findings of these test as regards the biblical account of the Great deluge? The sources that you derive your conclusions from that express a disbelief in the biblical account of the great deluge have they applied these test? To be sure I am not an expert on the matter. Believers opinions vary widely on the specific details. I believe it generally to be fact. When I was given faith in Jesus Christ, at one and the same time I received faith in the bible, that God wanted me to use it as a guide for my life, that it was trust worthy. All I can say is I had this experience and the bible began to be meaningful to me, certainly I have much more to learn. I want to thank you Chimp3 your motivating me to pursue that education with more vigor.
Just a question if I may?
Were you there when Wilbur and Orville Wright flew the first plane? or when GOD took a rib from Adam and created Eve? Now neither of us where there but that doesn't mean neither took place does it? However there is facts the Wright brothers did fly the plane ,the plane being one.
The most amazing fact that GOD used Adams rib is why every man born today is one rib short and any doctor will tell you that. (Genesis 2:22) Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
It is recorded in the Bible which is unlike any other book. Despite forty authors writing from three continents over nearly two thousand years, none of whom knew one another and yet it maintains a perfect consistency of message. Its words point unerringly to Christ, whose work on the cross was ordained by God—the true author of the Bible—before the world began.
So who needs to be an eyewitness , in fact has anyone seen Elvis lately...lol
Mick, men DO NOT have fewer ribs than women.
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John didn't know each other?
Do you really want to play the rib card? The first rule is to never tell a lie about stuff that can verified.
How many ribs do men and women have?
"While there are variations on the number of ribs, both men and women generally have the same number of 24 ribs. This discovery in the 14th century sparked a wave of controversy as it was at odds with the Biblical story of Adam and Eve, which claimed Eve was formed from Adam’s rib, suggesting men should have one less rib than women. Men’s rib cages are usually larger than women’s as testosterone during puberty triggers expansion of the rib cage to allow for better oxygen inhalation."
Well, I'll counter with this:
And Fred saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6: And it repented the Hedgehog that he had made pinecones on Venus , and it grieved him at his heart. 7: And the Hedgehog said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the Venus ; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repents me that I have made them (Arturo 6: 5-7) And Fred said unto Hector , The end of all flesh is come before me, for venus is filled with violence through them, and behold I will destroy them with Venus . (Arturo 6:13). Had Fred not destroyed all these pinecones, they would have destroyed each other. Only Hector and his family were not completely taken over by these spirits of violence. Mankind has nearly destroyed himself despite Fred having cleansed venus of these early corruptions. He intervened at the tower of BabelOlive Garden Salad Bar as well and through out history
This is absolute proof! I have seen this in an ancient holy book. You cannot deny it!
Ah, beleevur there is your first problem. You think that the "flood" story is a christian one or even a jewish one but it's not. The flood story/myth predates the jews and the christians.
There are lots of theories regarding the account of the great deluge. Not all believers agree on just exactly how it came to pass. Was it local (only extinguishing those humans alive on the earth at the time). Or literally world wide? I don't know. I'm still exploring that. Many unbelievers believe in a great deluge. Just because it predates Christian or Jewish records doesn't mean its not true.
Do you really think that it rained 6 inches a minute for forty days and forty nights all over the planet? Do you realize that such a downpour would have destroyed a wooden boat and displaced all of the oxygen in the atmosphere as well as been noisy as all hell?
The biblical Noah story is simply a war story. It's probably about the Egyptian conquest of the Levant and their subsequent displacement. Besides, all of the lands that existed around the Garden of Eden existed just fine after Noah's flood.
Read the story more carefully you'll see that water sprung up from out of the earth and not only fell form the sky.
So when the water sprung up from out of the Earth it didn't leave any voids? Do you have any idea how much a column of water 6 miles tall weighs?
If there was a God who was all powerful he could have accomplished the same thing without torturing people.
Furthermore, the flood is nothing more than a fairy tale. If there was a flood it was local, not world-wide...you know, like floods that happen today.
phetaroi said: If there was a God who was all powerful he could have accomplished the same thing without torturing people.
Furthermore, the flood is nothing more than a fairy tale. If there was a flood it was local, not world-wide...you know, like floods that happen today.
beleevur says: There are lots of reasons why suffering exist. One of them is: right now we are gaining first hand experience of what happens when we we act contrary to Gods will. Another: If we didn't experience pain than we would keep doing things that hurt us. Pain says "Stop that!" I for one have given up arguing with God about how he does things. I figure he is smarter than me. But I can't deny I continue to remain mystified about why he does some things the way he does. I'm convinced that one day all suffering will end, there will be "a final restitution of all things" Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21) Things will be restored to the way God intended them to be. This is a brief a period of suffering compared to the eternity of joy that awaits those who receive Gods gift of immortality, where there will be perfect love, joy and peace. Like the blink of an eye. Then we will see clearly all things. "For now we see thru a glass darkly" 1st Corinthians 13:12.
You haven't given up arguing ABOUT how God does things. You're doing it now.
Lots of people are obviously smarter than you.
The people who are dying of starvation, dehydration, cancer, and so many other things would prefer that the suffering end now. If I love somebody, I don't want them to suffer. In fact, even if I don't love somebody I generally don't want them to suffer. But if there is a God who can do anything, then I guess he enjoys seeing us suffer.
You are not a holy prophet. Please, just go away with your mumbo jumbo.