Is the God of The Bible just?

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Darren Koch's picture
Prove it

Prove it

chimp3's picture
Neuroscientists are using

Neuroscientists are using positron emission tomography to map the activity of emotions in the brain :

SunDog's picture

@sinner - 'prove it'

I took ecstasy once & loved my enemies!

Nyarlathotep's picture
beleevur - The God I believe

beleevur - The God I believe in created all that is.

Then he/she must have created themselves.

Johnny's picture
God has always been. He is

God has always been. He is an un-created being. I know that's hard to get our head around but that's the way God is. Oh and technically God is neither male nor female. God is Neuter.

Nyarlathotep's picture
You said you believe god

You said you believe god created all that is. Presumably you believe god is. Therefore god created himself.

Johnny's picture
That's a play on words. I've

That's a play on words. I've clarified, The God I believe in is self existent. In fact, that's the definition of one of his names (Jehovah or Yahweh). He's unfathomable. The universe to me is unfathomable how much more its creator?

mykcob4's picture
@ beleever

@ beleever
What a bunch of bullshit! god is self-existent yeah right. That is just a weak explanation. Can you PROVE your god is self-existent?

Johnny's picture
mykcob4's said: What a bunch

mykcob4's said: What a bunch of bullshit! god is self-existent yeah right. That is just a weak explanation. Can you PROVE your god is self-existent?

I've been thinking about this mykcob. Lets see how can I prove that my God is self existent? Do you want empirical evidence? What kind of evidence do you want?

algebe's picture
@beleevur: "technically God

@beleevur: "technically God is neither male nor female. God is Neuter."

How on Earth can you pretend to know that? Did you give him the Crocodile Dundee test?

And if god is neuter, why are the religions that worship it so obsessed with gender and sex? Why do the Pope and priests have to be men? Why did the so-called fall of man need to blamed on a woman? Why do believers in a neuter god fret so over homosexuality?

Making Mary pregnant (and then disappearing) seems like a pretty male thing to do.

Johnny's picture
I get all I learn about God

I get all I learn about God from study and prayer and from listening to the teachings of Gods ministers. I read works by the church fathers and the reformers as well as modern writers. I consider the scriptures sacred and it takes prayer and meditation to rightly understand them. I study the Hebrew and Greek, for clarification.

Actually God being Neuter is something most Christians are unaware of including a lot of the clergy. The fall of man could also be rightly called the fall of mankind. There's no blame. Actually Adam is usually used when referring to the fall of man. The serpent seduced and beguiled Eve. He was the real culprit. Anything that is contrary to the way God intended is fret over. Although I wouldn't put it that way.

algebe's picture
@beleevur: "Anything that is

@beleevur: "Anything that is contrary to the way God intended"

That's the heart of the problem, isn't it. When I was a child, everyone was convinced that god intended whites to rule the world, that marriage between different races (miscegenation) was against god's will, and that homosexuals were evil perverts who should be persecuted, preferably unto death.

Over the centuries, stupid and wicked men have concocted all kinds of nonsense about god's will, and that has caused endless suffering in the world. They've been able to do that because the bible is such a dog's breakfast of vague rules that can be used to justify or prohibit just about anything.

Johnny's picture
Algebe said: When I was a

Algebe said: When I was a child, EVERYONE was convinced that god intended whites to rule the world, that marriage between different races (miscegenation) was against god's will, and that homosexuals were evil perverts who should be persecuted, preferably unto death.

beleevur says: I put "EVERYONE" in all caps because that the part of what you said that was extreme. Not every believer believed those things.

Algebe said: Over the centuries, stupid and wicked men have concocted all kinds of nonsense about god's will, and that has caused endless suffering in the world. They've been able to do that because the bible is such a dog's breakfast of vague rules that can be used to justify or prohibit just about anything.

beleevur says: It's true that many wrong things have been done in Gods name, there has been a lot of misinterpretation and misapplication of the scriptures, but as far as "the bible being such a dog's breakfast of vague rules that can be used to justify or prohibit just about anything" I can't agree with that. In fact it's very specific in very many ways. There's no doubt that the bible is a tough read, it takes patience and perseverance to read and rightly understand. Misconceptions abound. If one undertakes a reading of it with and open mind and a prayerful heart it can be rightly understood. The bible does call evil, evil and good, good. Their is such a thing as good and evil. I'm convinced that the bible is a revelation of what right and wrong are. The problem is when we run across something in the bible that calls the things we do and many times love, evil, it makes us mad. We reason that we do and love these things by no choosing of our own, this is just the way we are. This is true in so many cases but the bible itself says this, that we were born sinners and made even worse by being brought up in this evil world (Pslams 51:5 KJV). It's a book given to us to guide us, to show us the way, just because it's misused by some, don't let that rob you of what it can do for you. God is a God of love and unconditional acceptance of all people. Thru faith in Jesus and that alone, we have standing with God, not by any righteousness of our own. We all have sin, confessing it to God is what frees us from it. No its not easy. It hasn't been for me. But if you think about it, any thing that's worth while is usually tough. Golden nuggets aren't just laying around on the ground every where. They're hard to find and you have to dig hard to get to them but the reward is great when you finally get to them. So while living out this faith has its challenges, it also has it's blessings. Love, joy and peace are just 3 of them. (Galatians 5:22)

Johnny's picture
I believe that, Vishnu,

I believe that, Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva, (the Trinity of Hinduism) the God of the Muslims are all very real spiritual entities. As well as all the other so called Gods, of the many other religions. In the Bible there were Baal, Moloch, Astoreth and many others. These are all demons masquerading as God, luring people away from the one true God. Satan rebelled against God and led a third part of God's Holy angels in that rebellion. All these angels are now fallen and irredeemably evil, filled with hatred toward God and human kind. They now populate this planet deceiving and destroying everything they can. They particularly target human beings, the apple of Gods eye, because we were created in his image. As his children.

Satan is the most powerful created being in the universe, only the one true God, Jehovah, the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob, whose son is Jesus of Nazareth the Christ, is more powerful then him. Only thru God can anyone find victory over Satan. God Loves us and wants to save us from our common spiritual enemy. You can ask God to give you faith in Jesus and he will and when you have this faith you can use it to defeat Satan and receive the promise of immortality. Being restored to your right place with God as his child, created in His image.

chimp3's picture
beleevur: Yikes! Is their any

beleevur: Yikes! Is their any god you don't believe in?

SBMontero's picture


Personally, I think that exonerates you in front the law if you commit a crime and makes you the perfect candidate to occupy a place in a psychiatric. Think about it, it's serious. Really.

Johnny's picture
2nd Corinthians 4:18 While

2nd Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at that which is seen but at that which is not seen, for that which is seen is temporal and that which is not seen is eternal.

Hebrews11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

SB: Do you really believe that your sense perceptions and them alone are putting you in touch with all that is? Make an appeal to your creator, he'll put you in touch with things beyond your finite and fallible human capacities. He'll give you immortality. You'll still have to live this life out, and it might not all be champagne and roses but it does come with many blessings and ultimately a place unspeakable and full of glory ...eyes have not seen, ears have not heard, neither has it entered in the the heart of man what God has prepared for those who love him.(1 Corinthians 2:9-10) Immortality, whats not to love?

Flamenca's picture
Beleevur: Immortality, whats

Beleevur: Immortality, whats not to love I agree 100 %, but I have to ask...

Immortaly, what's to believe? What evidence do you have of this being a phenomenon in reality, apart from words in a book? Could you give us a factual example of immortality? I mean, there are millions of other books in the world... Anne Rice, who now writes about the immortality of Jesus, was once writer of stories of immortal vampires... I think she has the same amount of real proofs for calling any of those immortality stories true, that is zero.

Even within the Bible there are at least 3 different Jesus resurrection's versions, with contradictions among the Apostles. Beleevur, I'm not joking, you should pay more attention to the book you are quoting... and you may be able to find them as well.

SunDog's picture
@beleevur - 'not seen'

@beleevur - 'not seen'

You realize that Paul was a gnostic & his 'christ' was a cosmic diety that never appeared on earth. Hebrews is also gnostic.

Johnny's picture
I've never heard these

I've never heard these opinions expressed before SHAM. I don't agree with them.

SBMontero's picture


What creator, which of them, which you say exists, which say Muslims, Shiites, Suniies, Jews, Hindus, which? The funniest thing of all, poor idiot, is that immortality is true, we are immortal, but we are because our atoms are, not because anyone has an immortal soul. Your stupidity and your quotes from a book that was written from the second century only give pity and disgust. Make it look, baby.

Johnny's picture
(paragraph divisions in this

(paragraph divisions in this writing are marked by a 1 line space instead of the usual indentation).

IOTS = Immortality of The Soul. ECS = Eternal Conscious Suffering

I have become aware that there have been discussions in evangelical Christianity, in recent decades, reexamining the doctrine of Hell (Many believers are not aware of this). There's a book entitled "Two views of Hell"*. It spells out a number of the main issues, it certainly does give us a lot to think about. Both Robert A.Peterson & Edward W.Fudge(it's writers) seem very convinced of their opposing positions.

What many have drawn from this debate is that: a case can be made from the scriptures themselves for both positions, one for hell being a place of "Eternal Conscious Suffering" (ECS) & one for hell being a place of a period of suffering & then, finally, the extinguishing of ones conscious, individual, life altogether. Of course both positions cannot be true. With the possible exception that a place of ECS could be the the final destination for some & not for others. Addressing this would be beyond the scope of this short message.

F.F.Bruce a respected & well known evangelical writer** wrote “annihilation is certainly an acceptable interpretation of the relevant N.T. Scriptures… For myself, I remain agnostic".(by agnostic, Bruce means he doesn't know).

Here I cite two scriptures one supporting the one view, one supporting the other.

Revelation 20:10... and the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire & brimstone, where the beast & the false prophet are & shall be tormented day and night for ever & ever (KJV).

Ecclesiastes 12:7 ...the dust shall return to the earth as it was & the spirit shall return unto God who gave it (KJV).

I personally can't reconcile a place of ECS with Gods justice. I can't see how God can be just and allow ECS to exist. This doesn't mean it can't be true. It means I can't currently see how it could be true.

The doctrine of the immortality of the Soul (IOTS) is closely connected to this issue. If the soul is "immortal" then it must exist somewhere, consciously, forever. You could say that the doctrine of IOTS justifies a place of ECS. If someone is to remain conscious forever & they have rejected God, insisting on living life as they choose, instead of submitting to Gods rule, such could not be allowed in the new heaven or on the new earth or we would be right back where we started from. It only takes one person unwilling to submit to God, rebelling against Gods will and rule, to rob the rest of us of our peace. They have to be put somewhere & it can't be among those who are in submission to God. Any place filled with such "renegades" with nothing to restrain them, surely would be "hell".

An issue of great import here, is, that the doctrine of the IOTS can't be found plainly & simply spelled out in scripture (If I'm wrong please inform me, I beg you). Some conclude that the IOTS, was a doctrine brought in by Greek philosophers who converted to Christianity in the early centuries of the church. It was taught by Aristotle & Socrates well before the birth of the church.

My conclusion: Hell is a place to be shunned, it's real. People will suffer there. For how long? I don't know. I believe it could be a place of ECS. But it might not be. Whatever the case may be, it should be avoided it at all cost. Submit to Gods will, ask God to enable you to. He will.

It may be that hell will be a place of ECS for the devil & his angels (...everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" - Matthew 25:41) but not for human beings. Why for the devil & not us? Was the devil aware of, and for this reason accountable for, something that we weren't? We know for instance, that it was the evil influence of the serpent upon Adam & Eve that brought about the fall of man, had the serpent not been in the Garden of Eden, Adam & Eve would not have fallen. But all the scripture says about Satan's fall was that "iniquity"(evil) was found in him"(Ezekiel 28:15). Nothing in scripture tells us where that iniquity came from. If the evil that was "found" in Satan was in him from the beginning, only God could have put it there. God was Satan's maker. If this is so, it would be unjust for God to allow Satan to suffer eternally. So what are we left with? Are there things that are past finding out? I think it's a safe assumption that there are. I think we have more Questions than Answers.

I will say this: I would not be comfortable insisting that there is not a place of ECS, (for Satan or for man), for the simple reason that I'm not currently completely convinced that there is not.

But nor would I be comfortable insisting that there is a place of ECS (for Satan or for man) for the simple reason that I am not currently completely convinced that there is.

From my experience, among the many Christian believers that I have been around, it seems to be that saying the three words "I don't know" is looked upon with contempt. I wonder, is it a sin to say "I don't know"? Please forgive me, but I believe it's more likely, that in very many cases... not saying them is [a sin].

This I am convinced of: one can hold to either of these positions about hell and continue to have standing with God. It's not a salvation issue. You can be wrong about this issue either way, or be unsure(or not know, like F.F Bruce) & still have standing with God. Our standing with God comes from having genuine faith in Jesus Christ.

Christians can be & are in error regarding many doctrinal issues. Christians can & do misinterpret scripture. Think about it. It wouldn't be very hard to find 5 theologians, who are genuine believers, who can fluently read, write & speak all of the biblical languages, all of whom have a resume of 40 or more yrs. of experience & it's a guarantee that all of them will disagree with one another on many points of doctrine & scripture(some very vehemently).

For the first 25 years of my Christian life I was passionately convinced that hell was a place of ECS & believed that anyone who believed differently, who professed to be a Christian, was a part of a cult & in all likelihood weren't really true believers.

I do feel compelled to ad one important point. I think it's safe to say that the most well known verse of scripture in the New Testament (for both believers & unbelievers alike) is John 3:16 --> For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not "PERISH" but have everlasting life.

I recently conducted a study into the meaning of the word "PERISH" as it is used in the N.T. including John 3:16. According to Strong's Greek dictionary***. The Greek word apollomi (Ap-ol-lo-mee) was translated into the English word "perish" and it means: To destroy fully (to perish or lose) literally or figuratively. This Greek word was translated into 4 other English words other than perish, they are: destroy, die, lose and mar.

DESTROY: To demolish, to ruin, to annihilate, to take away, to cause to cease, to put to an end. (WEBSTER'S 1828)

DIE: To be punished with death, to come to an end, to cease, to be lost or come to nothing. (WEBSTER'S 1828)

PERISH: To go or run through, to come to nothing, to be destroyed, to pass away, to become nothing, to be lost, hence to wither, to waste away, to die, to incur spiritual death, to suffer spiritual or moral ruin as a nation. (WEBSTERS' 1929)

I will allow the reader to draw their own conclusions & conduct further study.

This is a controversial issue & we should be very careful with whom & how we discuss it because it has the potential to stir up a lot of strife & division. We should keep seeking the truth, passionately, prayerfully, & prudently & be gracious with one another. After all, all of us are fallible, finite human beings. I think it was A.W.Tozer who said: "it's humility that becomes fallen creatures, not perfection".

Thank you

*(Peterson & Fudge. Publisher, Spectrum copyright 2000).

**Two of F.F. Bruce's most notable writings are: "Are the N.T. Documents reliable?" & "The Canon of Scripture")

*** contained in Strong's Exhaustive concordance of the Bible.

LogicFTW's picture
Admittedly I only read the

Admittedly I only read the first few paragraphs and scanned the rest.

I could easily be wrong as I only scanned most of your writing, but it sounds like you believe in some sort of hell but unsure of the details on it. And you believe in hell in large part because of a derivation of Pascal's wager.

I always find hell debates from theist that believe in hell fascinating. To me their is irreconcilable logic flaws in Hell. These flaws are lessened when you make the hell concept more vague and less bound to strong statements of fact/rules of the place. Of course in doing so you end up watering down the whole concept of hell and it's "threat" to keep people in line.

Be happy to debate hell with you if you want, perhaps start with what you believe you know about hell. And I can point out what I believe the flaws are.

Nyarlathotep's picture
beleevur - God didn't create

beleevur - God didn't create these things [lying, cheating, stealing, murder, torture, starvation, dehydration, rape, HIV, cancer, polygamy, gay sex, child molestation, spousal abuse, gambling, the Holocaust, war]


beleevur - The God I believe in created all that is.

Johnny's picture
God didn't create these

God didn't create these things but he did allow them to happen (There is spiritual cause and effect). Most of these things aren't material things but human action, I was referring to material things. You could say he created cancer and other viruses or pathogens that bring about disease, but I believe in many cases these things come about as a result of human action of a misguided nature. We have polluted and poisoned our world. We have behaved with one another in an unrestrained pursuit of sensual pleasure. Doing things with one another that God never intended, I'm all to familiar with these things. I believe doing these things brings about self destruction. Our common spiritual enemy lures us away from our maker and fellowship with him in such ways. We were created to worship God, that's our primary purpose. One theory suggest that human beings were created because there is now a vacancy in heaven, due to the rebellion of one third of the angels, he created us to fill that vacancy. But there is also mention of a new earth, so this gives us pause, is there more to it than this?

algebe's picture
@beleevur: "I believe in many

@beleevur: "I believe in many cases these things come about as a result of human action of a misguided nature."

You're right there. When plagues swept across Europe, people crammed into disease incubators called churches, which were heated by human bodies and candles. Priests and monks offered crazy remedies, like prayer and shit poultices. Wise women, with knowledge of herbal remedies and antiseptics, were burned as witches.

Human actions done in the name of Christianity are still killing people today. Jehovah's Witnesses let their children die for want of a blood transfusion. The Catholic church has promoted the spread of AIDS through its anti-condom policy.

Johnny's picture
Algebe: I agree believers

Algebe: I agree believers certainly have been guilty of acting in misguided ways. But it would be more accurate to say that human beings (of every stripe) have been guilty of acting in misguided ways. Having faith in God does not make a person perfect. I can personally testify that I, grew worse, in a number of ways after becoming a believer. One of the reasons for this was in my effort to live out my faith I was depending on my own power and not Gods power. God allowed me to fail and grow worse to teach me that I needed to look to him for my deliverance. The apostle Paul said "The law was given as our school master to lead us to Christ" (Galatians 3:24). Christians, many times try to keep, not the Mosaic law, but a law of their own making, believing that the keeping of it gives them standing with God when it's only our faith in Christ that gives us standing with God.

Nyarlathotep's picture
God didn't create these

God didn't create these things...

But you just told us he did. Perhaps you should get your story straight before you try to convince us.

Johnny's picture
beleevur says: Nyarlathotep,

beleevur says: Nyarlathotep, I clarified all of these things in "reply to #153.

Darren Koch's picture
That doesn't prove a thing

That doesn't prove a thing


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