Is the God of The Bible just?

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CyberLN's picture
beleevur, you said, "One

beleevur, you said, "One thing I feel sure of is: that many who say that they used to be Christians, weren't real genuine Christians. I don't know you well enough to say that this is the case with you, only time will tell."

Two questions: what constitutes 'genuine' (how is it measured) and could it be that the shoe also fits the other foot and you were not a 'genuine' atheist?

Johnny's picture
CyberLN

CyberLN

A genuine believer is one who confesses with their mouth the Lord Jesus and believes in their heart that God has raised him from the dead. They're not a Christian because they were born in Christian home or went to church when they were young, or even if they go to church as an adult. It requires more then mental accent to be a believer. A genuine believer is one who is reconciled to God thru faith in Jesus Christ. They believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth the Messiah prophesied of by the Hebrew prophets.

I wasn't one of these hard core I "know" there's not a God atheist. I lost my mom at the age of eight (not to death but to abandonment) I loved her very much and it devastated me. Then a lot of abuse, neglect, and other difficulties began to ensue. So when ever some one brought up God I thought to myself, "if there was a God why would he let all these things happen to me?" So I always told people I don't believe in God and I didn't. I certainly wasn't a practicing Christian. But then I had an encounter with God and this changed every thing. He began to answer my questions and he still is. I went thru a lot of anger toward God as a believer. I was converted at age 23. I'm in my 50's now. I suppose you could say I had a few faith experiences before I was a professing believer. I remember talking to this Jew once, when I was a kid of say 8 to 12 and he told me how people hated Jews and I told him I didn't, that I kinda admired them and he ask me why and I said because they're God's people. Where that came from I couldn't tell you, it was probably something I heard my dad say. Then there was this instance when I was high, having a hallucinogenic experience, it was a bad trip, I had become convinced that I was trapped in this terrible place and that I would remain there for ever and I said "Dear God if I could ever get out of here I would never do this again" that is, get high. After I said that I was instantly brought back to reality. But I still told people that I didn't believe. I will say this I've never forgotten that experience. And I was 1000% convinced I was going to stay in that place forever. I was about 15 at the time. So you be the judge. I guess it might be more accurate to say I was an unbeliever, how much difference is there?

Flamenca's picture
Beleevur, A genuine believer

Beleevur, A genuine believer is one who confesses with their mouth the Lord Jesus and believes in their heart that God has raised him from the dead.

There are thousands of cults around the world. They all claim to be genuine believers of the genuine God/Gods/Goddess...How do you know that you are following the right entity? Hindus, Muslims, Scientologists, Mormons... are as convinced as you are of being genuine followers of the right prophets, of the right superpowerful being. How could we tell if Christian personal experience of conversion is true and those of the other cults are a fantasy?

(edited)

phetaroi's picture
Beleevur says: Do you believe

Beleevur says: Do you believe that it's wrong for one person to try and persuade another person of their convictions? I for one, am good with others expressing to me that they believe my convictions are errant, it's what free speech is all about, a free market of ideas. The U.S. constitution affirms our God given right to freedom of conscience. Martin Luther the great church reformer, in the broadest sense, unlocked to the church and really the world at large, this idea of freedom of conscience, the idea existed before Luther but he had the courage to stand up and express his conscience when doing so could cost him his life. He brought it to life. In fact it did cost many others their lives all thru the middle ages. I believe that truth has power, and the only way it can be defeated is if it is silenced. That's why freedom of speech is so important, its the only way the truth will ultimately prevail.

Yes, it is wrong to attempt to force your ideas on others. If someone wants to hear your fairy tales, they can ask you. But you inserting yourself and shoving your ideas down their throats...yes, that is wrong.

Freedom of conscience is in your own head.
Freedom of speech is freedom from GOVERNMENT interference.

mykcob4's picture
No beleever you weren't

No beleever you weren't invited, you were welcomed. There is a big difference.

Johnny's picture
Beleevur says: If one says "I

Beleevur says: If one says "I want to invite you to my home tonight" or if one says "I want to welcome you to my home tonight" is there really a big difference in that? If so please clarify, I'm all ears.

xenoview's picture
Your god only created Adam

beleevur
Your god only created Adam and Eve, just read your bible. Your parents created or made you, they had sex. What evidence do you have that your god is real? Do you have any evidence outside of your bible? Anything we can test and retest?

edit

Johnny's picture
The God I believe in created

The God I believe in created all that is. God endowed Adam and Eve with reproductive ability, thus all that issued forth from them was his creation. As well as all the reproduction of all life. It started with God. With out him nothing would be.

xenoview's picture
beleevur

beleevur
Your god created Adam and Eve. So your god promoted incest in the beginning with Adam and Eve, and their children. Do you have any proof your god is responsible for creating all life?

Johnny's picture
That's the way it had to be

That's the way it had to be in the beginning isn't it. I believe in the Big Bang. I believe God said "Let there be light (and BANG!) their was light" And it was a BIG BANG! I don't believe God, the one true God created life, I believe he created all that is. As far as evidence, I wasn't there conducting any video recordings, taking notes, nor did I have a group of colleagues with me to corroborate the beginning of creation of the universe as we know it. Of course I don't think any one did, did they, since they didn't exist yet. The universe existed before life as we know it did. I had an encounter with this God, this creator, and he gave me to see that he did all of this, at that time I wasn't conducting any video recordings or taking notes, nor did I have a group of colleagues with me to corroborate anything. It was a personal encounter of a spiritual nature. You can have this same encounter through prayer. There are many things that are real that we can't see with our eyes, hear with our ears, handle with our hands, or even fully understand with our minds. Can you prove that things that can't be detected with our sensory perceptions don't exist? We've discovered many things that we once couldn't see. Does this mean that when we couldn't perceive them that they didn't exist until we became capable of perceiving them? There is an unseen world, a spiritual realm, we can see into if we seek to do so, we can make an appeal to the divine mind, one incapable of any error. Go to him, ask him to show you, with an honest heart, trust him, imagine the wonders you can learn. Another thing that you can receive is immortality. The apostle Paul said: If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead you shall be saved, for with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation (Romans 8:9-10).

A prayer: God I'm not perfect, I've done wrong, I can't change myself, but you can change me and I want you to. Give me faith in Your son Jesus Christ. I want to take my place by your side as your daughter or son. Be the Lord of my life.

If you prayed this prayer from your heart you now possess immortality. Hallelujah!

SBMontero's picture
@beleevur:

@beleevur:

It's not "I believe in the Big Bang", the Big Bang is a scientific fact, as is the evolutionary fact, or the movement of tectonic plates. In the case of the Big Bang we have images of the background radiation that prove it, in the case of the evolutionary fact the bones of your inner ear, for example, and in the case of the movement of plaques a simple earthquake.

Praying? Read a book and stop crap, gods don't exist, don't waste time, do yourself a favor and do your children a favor, culture it.

Johnny's picture
SBMontero said: ...the Big

SBMontero said: ...the Big Bang is a scientific fact... we have images of the background radiation that prove it...

Beleevur says: Before we had the technology to capture those images, of that back ground radiation, or discover it at all, was the big bang a fact then? It was a fact before we could prove it. Wasn't it? There are many other things that we can't prove empirically that are facts as well. I wonder what they might be? Before its all over with, do you think maybe there might be some things that remain unproven that are real nonetheless. This is where faith comes in. Instead of insisting on proof for everything, pray and ask God about things. How could a non existent God answer your prayers? or lie to you. If there is no God then he certainly can't mislead you. Oh, and don't pray to my God, or anybody else's God, pray to your Creator, with and honest heart, don't just mouth some superficial prayer, but do it from your heart, shake your fist in his face if you have to, I've done it, he preferred that over my trumped up piety.

Dear God, my Creator, if your real, bring yourself to my attention. Something to this effect, go ahead I dare you.

Do you have the courage to do that - do you? Do you really want to know the truth? You already have a God and what ever that God is, it's more important to you than everything else in your life - including the truth. God isn't only a "sky fairy" your GOD IS ANYTHING IN YOUR LIFE THAT YOU SET ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE, that's one definition of God. Who or what is your God SB? Think about it. Get real.

algebe's picture
@Beleevur: "This is where

@Beleevur: "This is where faith comes in."

No. Faith is the road block on the road to knowledge. If we relied on faith, we'd still be accepting that the universe was created in a week 6,000 years ago. It's precisely the lack of faith that drives science forward. Every piece of knowledge, every theory is subject to challenge. That process of challenge has taken us from Ptolemy to Copernicus, to Newton, to Einstein, to Hubble, to Hawking....

@Beleevur: "God is anything in your life that you set above everything else"

That definition surprises me. I thought you believed in a personal god, a conscious entity.

SBMontero's picture
@beleevur:

@beleevur:

Does that mean that the evolutionary fact is a fact that your religion denies, that women's rights are a fact that your religion denies because, although we all know they are true, your religion is pure garbage that supports the denial of reality and the indoctrination of children in ignorance? Recognize it, as you have recognized that the Big Bang is a fact. Ahead.

phetaroi's picture
I'm glad that you can admit

I'm glad that you can admit that God created lying, cheating, stealing, murder, torture, starvation, dehydration, rape, HIV, cancer, polygamy, gay sex, child molestation, spousal abuse, gambling, the Holocaust, war, and you.

Johnny's picture
God didn't create these

God didn't create these things but he did allow them to happen (There is spiritual cause and effect). Most of these things aren't material things but human action, I was referring to material things. You could say he created cancer and other viruses or pathogens that bring about disease, but I believe in many cases these things come about as a result of human action of a misguided nature. We have polluted and poisoned our world. We have behaved with one another in an unrestrained pursuit of sensual pleasure. Doing things with one another that God never intended, I'm all to familiar with these things. I believe doing these things brings about self destruction. Our common spiritual enemy lures us away from our maker and fellowship with him in such ways. We were created to worship God, that's our primary purpose. One theory suggest that human beings were created because there is now a vacancy in heaven, due to the rebellion of one third of the angels, he created us to fill that vacancy. But there is also mention of a new earth, so this gives us pause, is there more to it than this?

phetaroi's picture
You're lying. Here is the

You're lying. Here is the exact quote from your post: "The God I believe in created all that is."

SBMontero's picture
@beleevur:

@beleevur:

We know that Amazonian indigenous peoples, or African peoples such as Bushmen have minimal incidences of diseases like cancer, leukemia, etc, although they are more promiscuous, generally have animist and totemic religions and when they meet with missionaries simply tolerate them.

Does that mean that there are healthier religions than others, or healthier ways of life than others, or are you telling me bullshits to see if strain? WHAT?

Any comments about, baby?

SunDog's picture
@beleevur

@beleevur

'worship god' - god can kiss my ass. (I have a donkey in the backyard)

SunDog's picture
'God had to' - what? Did

'@beleevur

God had to' - what? Did someone put a gun to god's head (assuming god has one)? What happened to god's free will?

phetaroi's picture
A couple of postings up you

A couple of postings up you challenged me to offer more solid challenges to your postings.

So let's be more challenging.

"God had to allow for the existence of evil in order to create beings possessed of free will."

Prove it.

"he created us in his image"

Prove it.

"The fact is God's greatest creation is human kind. Because we are most like him."

Prove it.

Johnny's picture
Algebe: Even the persons

Algebe: Even the persons within the ark were sinful, which simply means they were imperfect. But Noah and his family weren't completely over taken by the powers of evil. Unseen, malevolent, spiritual entities were upon the earth influencing the way people thought, felt and acted. All but Noah and his family were completely over taken by these powers. Had God not intervened Noah and his family could have been completely overtaken as well, or destroyed by those who were.

As far as babies all humans were born morally corrupted after the fall of man. Death isn't necessarily a bad thing. God gave all life anyway. What will happen after death? Only when we learn what our maker does with us after death can we render a judgment as to whether what he does is just or not.

Geology and climate science as well as genetic science are all things undertaken by fallible, finite human beings, as such, they are not perfectly trustworthy and we see that the conclusions they draw are constantly being reevaluated and corrected as new knowledge comes to light.

algebe's picture
@Beleevur: "Unseen,

@Beleevur: "Unseen, malevolent, spiritual entities were upon the earth influencing the way people thought, felt and acted."

They're still here. We call them priests, preachers, pastors, vicars, rabbis, etc. They hide themselves in fancy dress to conceal their true nature as selfish, grasping, perverted control freaks. But really they're just small-minded broken people.

But you were talking literally, weren't you? You really believe in incorporeal beings haunting the real world. All I can say to that is wake up and take a deep noseful of that bullshit smell.

@Beleevur: "As far as babies all humans were born morally corrupted after the fall of man."

This is where you've gotten really stupid and I've gotten really angry. A new-born baby is not morally corrupt. A baby is an innocent little package of potential.

Johnny's picture
When wild vicious animals

When wild vicious animals mate and have babies their babies are wild vicious animals. Its common knowledge that people are born with behavioral predispositions to lying (pathological liars) promiscuity (nymphomaniacs) violence (sociopaths). I could go on. A brief overview of human kinds history clearly shows that we are morally corrupt. It's innate. Were f--ked up. Of course we are also impacted by our upbringing and all the things that influence us in this dark, confusing and evil world we live in. That's why we need a savior. The very facilities we need to straighten ourselves out are flawed, we can't right our own ship. We need God to right it for us. If we ask him he will. It can be a long arduous journey, it has been for me, but as far as I see it, its my only hope. We were shapen in inequity and in sin did our mothers conceive us. (Psalms 51:5) If we think we're good we won't make an appeal to God to straighten us out. Becoming aware of our fallen moral state is important. When we receive faith in Jesus Christ, the righteousness of Jesus Christ is credited to our account (imputed righteousness) then God can accept us. That's salvation. Imputed righteousness allows God to accept us as righteous, (even though we're actually not) then begins a process of sanctification where we acquire "actual righteousness". That's spiritual growth. Where we become more and more as God intended us to be.

SunDog's picture
@beleevur

@beleevur

JC never existed (absence of evidence).

Johnny's picture
Can you prove that

Can you prove that incorporeal beings don't exist? It's one thing to say you don't believe they exist, it quite another to say you know they don't exist. Multiplied millions of people all down thru the ages have testified of encounters with them. To be sure some were aberrations, hallucinations, etc. but can we know that all of them were? I contend that with such a large number of people citing such encounters that this constitutes evidence. Evidence that should be explored. For many people it's not about what the truth is it's about what they want to believe. Honestly there's a lot of things I don't want to believe, but what am I to do when confronted with the truth? Shrug it off? Be a truth seeker. Let the chips fall where they may.

chimp3's picture
beleevur: "Can you prove that

beleevur: "Can you prove that incorporeal beings don't exist? It's one thing to say you don't believe they exist, it quite another to say you know they don't exist. Multiplied millions of people all down thru the ages have testified of encounters with them. To be sure some were aberrations, hallucinations, etc. but can we know that all of them were?"

You hit the nail on the head. There is no way to say they do or do not exist. Therefore there is no reason to believe in them.

Johnny's picture
Chimp3: There was a time when

Chimp3: There was a time when we didn't believe in bacteria. We couldn't see it. But we learned of it. Spiritual matters are different because, bacteria is a different kind of being then "spirits". they are physical like us. I've seen spirits, both evil and holy. It's a different realm. You may not have reason to believe in them, but I do because I was given to see them. It would also seem that since there are literally 100's of thousands (this is a conservative figure) of other people that will testify of seeing or experiencing incorporeal beings in one fashion or another that there must be something behind this. Should you accept it unquestionably? No. But I do believe its worthy of honest consideration. Based on the sheer number of people who have reported having these encounters. As far as I'm concerned its incontrovertible. I'm not arguing for Christianity or another religion but for the existence of a spiritual realm. Where there are beings of a non-physical nature that can and do come into our realm and at times show themselves. They also are in and remain in our realm but remain mostly unseen. God sometimes enables us to see them.

chimp3's picture
beleevur; Stop! you are

beleevur; Stop! you are cracking me up! OK ! So, god gave to you the ability to see demons. I say your a liar or delusional.

We did not learn about bacteria from any religious practice. Your savior on a stick may have shown you demons but he did not advise any one to boil their water before drinking. If he had millions of babies would have been saved from death by diarrhea.

Johnny's picture
Chimp3 said: beleevur; Stop!

Chimp3 said: beleevur; Stop! you are cracking me up! OK ! So, god gave to you the ability to see demons. I say your a liar or delusional.

Beleevur ask: Can you prove I'm lying or that I'm delusional? Show me some evidence?

Chimp3 says: Your savior... did not advise any one to boil their water before drinking. If he had millions of babies would have been saved from death by diarrhea.

Beleevur says: This life is but a vapor it appears on the earth a little while and then it vanishes away.(James 4:14)

20: For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21: Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22: For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now. 23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the the redemption of our bodies. (Romans 8:20-23)

We live in a fallen world and until the restoration of all things, evils shall continue to prevail. But for those with faith, an eternity of unspeakable glory awaits. As for those babies none shall suffer in the here after and all injustices shall be made right, for God is Just. He is Justice.

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