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I've suffered a lot myself and I agree I usually want it to end pretty quick. We have to accept that suffering is part of this life. But one day it will end, we will understand, have faith, have patience. God could have made us pre-programmed automatons then there would be no suffering. But when free will was introduced and we choose the wrong things that's where suffering came from. But God wasted no time, as soon as the fall occurred he set in motion the plan of redemption. Sickness and suffering/Pain and fear/Plunged into the darkness/ Never to reappear. Joy to reign. That day is coming.
'After the fall' why didn't god kill adam & eve & just start over instead of doing the whole flood thing? God should be fired for incompetence. My dog ccould come-up with a better plan & done a better job. Theists just make-up stuff to fit their theology. The difference between science & theology is; science changes with new facts & theology doesn't.
But you know what they're likely to say...their old standby: God works in mysterious ways.
Atheist Republic heartily welcomes all who want to participate, irrespective of whether they are secular individuals, non-believers or even those who do not see eye-to-eye with atheists.
That's right. And those who tell you to go away don't represent everyone here. They're just expressing their own views. Ignore them if you wish.
Thank you Algebe.
beleevur says too phetaroi: I said arguing WITH God not ABOUT God.
Yeah; those pre-flood people were so hardcore, Jesus could not have saved 'em!
Hi, Beleevur. Let me start with the question... which one of the floods? Because several flood legends have been written throughout the ages in many different cultures... http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html
If you were talking of the story of Noah, please, take a closer look at this article about the similarities (and small differences) between Old Testament's flood and the Summerian flood myth, written at least 4000 years ago: http://www.icr.org/article/noah-flood-gilgamesh/
P.S. Mykcob and others had already addressed this question. I just wanted to give more evidence.
So God was powerless to save the human race without killing most of them.
Sounds like a very weak God to me.
How come God is always killing people. (It's a statement, not a question).
There are reason why God does things the way he does, are they always easy to understand? No. In this instance God is fixing some thing. We look at death as a bad thing, this is not always the case. This life is so small compared to the life to come. It's just a speck, yet its very important, it has a purpose, I've been spending the larger part of my life pondering this life's meaning, I've gained some insight, but I don't have all the answers. I've heard some call this life a "proving ground" for the life to come. I've theorized that God created us to fill the vacancy in heaven left by the rebelling angles. God could have made it all go away and started fresh many would argue, but there was a reason he didn't or couldn't do it that way. But God can do any thing you say. No. There are some things God can't do because he predetermined not to do them that way and he would be vacillating, God doesn't wavier, God is perfect, holy, always bound by his own will. One of the major contributors to this complex mess we're all in is "Free Will" God allowed other actors on the stage of life that were possessed of free will, other then himself that is. One thing that theologians have never been able to answer is. Where did evil come from? We know Adam and Eve were seduced and beguiled by the serpent in the garden, that's what corrupted them, poisoned there lives with sin and rebellion, but the scriptures don't tell us what brought about Satan's fall, they only say that evil was found in him. (Ezekiel 28:15). Is God obligated to tell us every thing? I can promise you, we will never know every thing, only God will. Omniscience is Gods domain. Who are we to demand anything of God? We fear great and powerful human beings who we wouldn't dare to demand any thing of, yet we turn right around and think we can make God tell us everything. I've been ask about faith in this thread, here's one aspect of faith: Trust God. Instead of insisting on all the answers and making demands, trust him, he's in your corner, he can take care of you. He will, if you let him. But you have to let him sit on the throne of your life. This is what most of us stubbornly refuse to give up. Satan did that to us. He made us rebellious and stubborn. God can save us from him. Ask him to save you.
Oh please. Not the old God works in mysterious ways cop out.
Come on phetaroi you can do better than be more thoughtful in your responses. Address what I had to say on a point by point bases. This yields more fruitful result. We discover more truth this way. That is if it's the truth your looking for.
Let's be clear:
1. I'm not looking for YOUR truth.
2. YOUR truth is nothing more than your opinions, no more valid than anyone else's opinions.
@beleevur: "We know Adam and Eve were seduced and beguiled by the serpent in the garden"
No. You don't _know_ that. You might believe it, or imagine it, or dream it, or wish it, but you don't know it because it never happened. The human race didn't spring from a single breeding pair. We started out on a savannah, not in a garden. And snakes do not have the brains or vocal apparatus needed for speech.
@beleevur
So any mass murder can be justified as long as it's 'holy, righteous, sacred' & done in god's name? Then anything can be justified. Ask any zealot. That's the problem.
I never said that and I certainly don't agree with it.
God had to allow for the existence of evil in order to create beings possessed of free will. He could have created a bunch of pre-programmed automatons. But he created us in his image, that is to say, like him, beings free to choose. These beings had to have something from which to choose. If God created us with free will but then we had nothing from which to choose, free will would be pointless. The fact is God's greatest creation is human kind. Because we are most like him.
@beleevur:
I am not convinced! Let your god come and tell me why itself!
Ah another error beleever. Monotheism and indeed every religion is based on predetermination. You can't have it both ways. You can't believe that things are predetermined and also have free will.
Next!
I believe predetermination and free will are reconcilable. Mans free will is limited to the sphere in which God has placed him, mans free will is not absolute. Even God has limited himself in many ways.
@beleever
WHAAAAAAAAAT god has limits you say? You believers always MOVE the goal post in an effort to justify your myth. First, god, is all powerful all knowing too big to fathom. Now you say that god has limits. What a fucking crock. Just another apologist redefining what they believe to fit a narrative. No you don't beleever. You either believe your myth or you don't. You don't get to move the goal post. There isn't any new information about christianity, no new gospels. For science to change things they base those changes are on new better and more accurate information, but you just become more vague and obscure in your justifications.
One limit God places on himself is he will not break his word. He cannot and will not lie. You could say it is impossible for God to lie. The only limits God has, he has placed upon himself.
Hebrews 6:17-19 (KJV)
Wherein God, willing more abundantly to show unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
mykcob4 said: For science to change things they base those changes are on new better and more accurate information, but you just become more vague and obscure in your justifications.
beleevur says: Religion has done the same adjusting our positions based on new, better and more accurate information or revelation if you will, this must be specified because we are dealing with things that can't always be easily empirically verified,
Like the Revelation The Apostle John received from God and wrote down. It can't be empirically verified but this doesn't prove it didn't take place.
As to your charge: "but you just become more vague and obscure in your justifications" I ask: How so?
Fine. Would you let us have free will and leave us alone?
God has endowed you with free will and I do not deny it to you. As far as leaving you alone I have been invited here to engage in this dialogue by Atheist Republic. I respect your beliefs. I used to be an atheist myself. One cannot be forced to believe anything. God will not force you to believe in him or honor him, even if you do believe in him.
You were invited here? I believe you are lying.
Phetaroi:
I thought I read on here, on Atheist Republic that "all are welcomed" is that not correct?
I found it: This is a portion of text introducing the debate room. "Atheist Republic heartily welcomes all who want to participate, irrespective of whether they are secular individuals, non-believers or even those who do not see eye-to-eye with atheists."
First of all, saying one is welcome is not the same as being invited. So that was a lie.
But I'm going to give some advice...that you won't listen to because you are another know-it-all Christian.
Another lie you're telling is that you're just here to debate. No, you're here to attempt to convert. That's the truth. When you INSERT YOURSELF into a group with firmly held beliefs and try to change those beliefs, your chances of converting anyone are very slim. What you will accomplish is making people HATE what your doing and what you stand for even more than they already do.
I have watched fools like you trying to convert Thai Buddhists on the steps of department stores any number of times. And the Thais -- who are pretty laid back -- watch for a while, and then walk away laughing, sometimes to themselves, and sometimes out loud. And when I would ask them what they thought, they would tell me that it was free entertainment...and laugh.
Most of us here have been Christians earlier in our lives. And event those haven't know all the stories you're telling as well as you do. And we don't believe them anymore. We grew up; you haven't.
Get over yourself. The world will be a better place.
phetaroi said: First of all, saying one is welcome is not the same as being invited. So that was a lie.
Beleevur says: Lets see, if one says "I want to invite you to my home tonight" or if one says "I want to welcome you to my home tonight" is there really a big difference in that? But I won't push that issue. Just exactly what constitutes a lie that interest me more. This is what I've taught my kids. A lie is when one says something that's not true, knowing that it's not true, and tries to get another to believe that it is true. I certainly haven't done that in this instance.
phetaroi said: ... I'm going to give some advice...that you won't listen to because you are another know-it-all Christian.
Beleevur says: I certainly don't believe I know it all. I know you didn't mean that literally. But there's a lot I don't know, about a lot of things, about the Christian faith and a number of other things and I'm sure I'll discover many more things that I'm wrong about before I move on from this life. I do have a love of learning.
phetaroi said: Another lie you're telling is that you're just here to debate.
Beleevur says: I never said I was here just to debate.
phetaroi said: ...you're here to attempt to convert. That's the truth. When you INSERT YOURSELF into a group with firmly held beliefs and try to change those beliefs...
Beleevur says: Do you believe that it's wrong for one person to try and persuade another person of their convictions? I for one, am good with others expressing to me that they believe my convictions are errant, it's what free speech is all about, a free market of ideas. The U.S. constitution affirms our God given right to freedom of conscience. Martin Luther the great church reformer, in the broadest sense, unlocked to the church and really the world at large, this idea of freedom of conscience, the idea existed before Luther but he had the courage to stand up and express his conscience when doing so could cost him his life. He brought it to life. In fact it did cost many others their lives all thru the middle ages. I believe that truth has power, and the only way it can be defeated is if it is silenced. That's why freedom of speech is so important, its the only way the truth will ultimately prevail.
phetaroi said: Most of us here have been Christians earlier in our lives.
Beleevur says: That's interesting because I used to be an atheist. It works both ways doesn't it?
One thing I feel sure of is: that many who say that they used to be Christians, weren't real genuine Christians. I don't know you well enough to say that this is the case with you, only time will tell.
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