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I am not going to blindly accept anything. Instead, let's assume that most atheists do not assume, but require evidence. Any appeal to faith will definitely fall on deaf ears.
But if there was a god, my way of thinking is that there are multiverses, and in each one a god exists. But unfortunately, we got the defective god, the one who cannot communicate, who is petty, psychotic, insecure and vain, and basically can't get anything right.
Also Ryan, almost all in here are more knowledgeable about the bible than the average "Christian". I, among many others, have pored over this bible many times, dissecting and cross-referencing this tome.
Additionally, this in how not to conduct a meaningful exchange of opinions and information. A frequent exchange of dialogue is healthy, holding out for a huge pronouncement is pompous and sets one up for a huge fail.
@ Ryan
"before I do my big response I"
For accounts of Zeus's interaction with humans, the careers of his children, his marriage, affairs and ability to cast thunderbolts from a blue sky then there is a plethora of early and classical Greek works detailing such happenings. More than in the bible about YHWH and his son/father/ghost combo.. We even know exactly where Zeus lives, his architecture and what games he prefers. We know about his brothers, wife, daughters, sons, bastard children and what became of them.
It is a lot of reading, combine it with your research on Aphrodite. There will be a test.
Mithras has often been touted as forerunner to the modern Jesus myth. He is the god that most Roman soldiers preferred to worship from the 1st to 4th century when the practises and temples were merges with the christian church.
""Both Mithras and Christ were described variously as 'the Way,' 'the Truth,' 'the Light,' 'the Life,' 'the Word,' 'the Son of God,' 'the Good Shepherd.' The Christian litany to Jesus could easily be an allegorical litany to the sun-god. Mithras is often represented as carrying a lamb on his shoulders, just as Jesus is. Midnight services were found in both religions. The virgin mother...was easily merged with the virgin mother Mary. Petra, the sacred rock of Mithraism, became Peter, the foundation of the Christian Church."
Gerald Berry, Religions of the World
Interesting isnt it? You are going to find a world of fascination, Mithra goes way further back than that though right back to around 1500BCE (Mitra) you have a lot of reading to do. A lot of lies to shed.
If you don't know your stuff when you respond there be bears in these woods...just sayin'.....
@Old Man
"Lions and tigers and bears! Oh my!..."
@Ryan and Original Post.
Which religious denomination are we talking here? Which version of the holy babble that describes your jesus christ?
I can tell you even if somehow I was magically convinced that the jesus christ was absolutely real, I would still not worship the god if it is anything like the jesus christ as depicted by any of the religions I am familiar with.
Obviously if that jesus were to threaten me with hell or heaven, I would play along by the rules, but I certainly would not like or respect that version of jesus that basically blackmails and bribes everyone to worship it.
@Logic Re: "Obviously if that jesus were to threaten me with hell or heaven, I would play along by the rules,..."
But how could you possibly "play along"? Because if the Jesus and god of the bible were real, they would automatically KNOW you are not being sincere and you would get sent to the furnace anyway.
@Tin-man
Good point, obviously we would need a lot of details filled in on this revealed jesus character, but if it is the jesus character depicted by most holy babbles, I am screwed, because I am intelligent enough to know blackmail when I see it. Guess I would just try and have as much fun as I could in the normal life, and live exactly the same way I do now, operate that there is no jesus/god or afterlife.
I am non denominational, I follow Jesus.
"Non-demonitational" always cracks me up! Do you confess to a priest? Are you a Marionite? No? Most likely you are a Protestant that has been hoodwinked into thinking your belief system has direct links to the characters in the Book of Acts and has not undergone a break from the Roman Catholic Church. You can not escape the many schismatic divisions of your philosophy so easily,
there are many different versions of the bible and as long as you believe Jesus as your savior all the minor differences do not matter that much. Its not about laws and rules its about having a relationship with Jesus. I am not one of those people that looks down on others because they are sinners.....because I am a sinner to.....I am no better than you, the only difference is that I have Jesus in my life.
Ah, so you have a vague, undefined character in your life, with no specific rules or details to describe him.
I too am a non denominational "jesus" believer, I met Jesus back when I was in high school, he was about 16, and very proud of his Mexican heritage and name. I helped him in typing class. I fully believe that Jesus I met back at 16 was real. He was assigned to the computer next to mine, I got to see him, talk to him and help him memorize the qwerty layout so he did not have to "hunt and peck" anymore for 8 weeks in typing class. He did not seem particularly extra special compared to everyone else I have met though, I do not see why anyone would have a problem believing a non specific non denominational Jesus is real, I certainly believe Jesus I met in that class was real.
I am not a sinner. Sin is a crime against god. I do not believe in god. There are only crimes against people, animals, the earth. There are also painful things we can do to others that are not crimes, such as mocking a disfigured person. No sin though.
ryan,
"I follow Jesus."
If you follow Jesus send me all of your money. http://www.bricktestament.com/the_teachings_of_jesus/on_giving/mt05_41.html 4 pictures.
Jesus is real. This is a test of your faith and belief. So if you don't do it then you don't believe in Jesus and he will toss you into the lake of fire for disobeying his commandments.
@Ryan: I just don’t think it’s fair to dislike GOD for some of the horrible things that people do.
At the Nuremberg trials, Hitler's henchmen tried to deny their crimes by claiming that they were just following orders. But we hanged them anyway, and we still hate and blame Hitler.
The people who've done atrocious things in the name of god also claimed to be following god's orders. So how should we feel about god?
Personally, I'd conclude that god's not guilty of crimes against humanity on the grounds of non-existence. But how does someone who believes in god cope with this question?
Also, it's taken me all of two minutes to respond to your initial post. Why do you keep popping in and out with promises to reply soon? With your faith and certainty, it should be easy to overcome the arguments of a few heathens. Have you tried praying for inspiration?
You made some good points but if someone is truly following god then they wouldn't be doing cruel or evil things because God is none of those things.
@Ryan: God is none of those things.
The god of the bible seems about as cruel and evil as Caligula to me. In the Old Testament he floods the entire world, nukes two cities, and turns a woman into salt. In the New Testament he rapes and impregnates a virgin and arranges for his own son to be tortured to death.
Well it depends. If you mean the God of Christianity, I think one would be a fool NOT to follow him, as he will send you to hell to burn and suffer for all of eternity, if you don't follow him ! So even if he's a total bastard, you better follow him or else !
On the other hand, if he was just like, "Hi, I'm God. Do what you want. I'm cool with that" then I guess Id just do what I want.... Which is just to be a generally good person, because I have evolved like that, and do whatever it was that made me happy.
Fortunately none of this matters, and I don't have to concern myself with far fetched hypothetical questions such as this.
Very small background
Yes, I was raised a Christian and I know what you’re thinking another one of those. However, believe it or not, it has always bothered me because of all the religions and beliefs, what are the odds that the beliefs that I was raised with is true, not very good right? I spent a lot of my life believing then not being sure then believing again. One day my college professor said “there is no GOD, evolution is the truth”. This bothered me a lot and I made a decision that I NEED to find out the truth no matter what.
Wherever the evidence leads me is where I am going, but where do I start?
I started from the very beginning and concluded there are only two possibilities of our existence.
Possibility one, we are here by chance and that we evolved by evolution.
Possibility two some entity created us, aliens, GOD who knows.
I concluded that something must have created us.
There are a few things that I just cant get past to believe we were created by natural causes
First, everything in its simplest form is still very complex. The simple cell is extremely complex. Fred Hoyle stated the odds of the simple cell being created are like a tornado creating a Boeing 747. If you look at some Youtube videos you can see how amazingly complex it is, and it is already in its simplest form. Each mechanism, in it simplest form requires vast improbabilities. Things like echolocation, sight, lungs, sonar, hearing, photosynthesis, reproductive process, birds that just know how to migrate and go places they have never been before, you could go on and on.
Second the dark matter and dark energy issue. We just so happen to have the perfect mass energy density for life to be possible. To much energy density and the universe collapses into a black hole not enough and everything spreads out enough that life isn’t possible. There is the perfect amount that causes a very slow expansion. The mass energy density is .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000138 and it cant be any different. There is no chance for evolution, its either correct or not.
My favorite resource for science is reasons to believe dot org
There are many other reasons but these are my personal favorite examples.
So I came to the conclusion that something had to have created our world.
But who
This part I don’t remember the details very well because I did it a long time ago. I went through each religion and decided if it made sense and I concluded the only one that did make sense is Christianity. I know Lee Strobel, wrote two books that made a lot of sense to me, A Case for Christ, and, A Case for Faith, good reads.
It is actually very hard for me to believe in God because I am naturally a very skeptical person. I naturally don’t believe in anything but I can get past the things I have read and understand.
I can say I don’t believe everything that I was raised to believe, I no longer believe in a global flood and I do now believe in old earth not young earth.
I am going to say something that probably doesn’t make sense but I believe you people have more potential for Christ than anyone. I believe you are huge treasures for Christ. He loves you very much.
I have been watching near death experiences on Youtube a lot lately and I think I have seen about 20 of them now. Most of them are to hell and back. After awhile you hear the same things said over and over again, so either they watch each others videos and copying each other or their experiences are real. I am not saying this is proof of GOD just a observation. I would suggest watching these they are fascinating.
Ok its time for you to call me crazy and stupid…and its ok. Keep in mind I only doing this because over the years Jesus has taught me to care and love and yes people can be so mean and hurtful.
Exhausted guys but I will keep replying be patient.
NDE's? Really? That argument has been thrashed hard so many times on this forum. NDE's are punching bags here.
I agree NDE is not an argument or proof probably shouldn't have put it on there just a suggestion to look at.
It is worst than that Ryan, I am one who experienced a NDE. In 2010 I had to undergo emergency surgery, and later I was informed that they had lost my vital signs twice on the table. And during that time I experienced an incredibly powerful and vivid dream. By any standards you choose, I fall within the category of one who had an NDE.
During my NDE period of time nothing about religion was in my dream, rather a subject I had been fervently researching for over two months. As one who experienced it fully, IMO when the brain enters this NDE phase, it recalls memories on what the individual is thinking most about. I was thinking ship design, and it is not a huge leap to expect a fervent religious person to see religious stuff.
I did tell those close to me what I dreamed, but it was a trivial matter since I spent a few days in critical care and another few weeks hospitalized, fighting for my life. And I never felt any need to run out and make a video and post it. But I can understand why a religious person would broadcast it to the world. In my case (and I believe many other non-theists) making a video was stupid, while for a religious person, for them it is confirmation they saw clouds, or stuff.
There is a very good reason why almost all NDE videos are done by religious persons.
@ryan
1) Your professor never told you that. Evolution is a fact but it doesn't nor does it try to disprove a god. So right off this statement by you is a lie and bullshit!
2) You make a HUGE an inaccurate assumption that everything is complex and organized. That is simply a falsehood.
3) You rely on highly dubious YouTube videos for your information. Hardly quality research. In fact, it isn't research at all.
4) I can't WAIT until Nyar EDUCATES your dumbass about dark energy. You are WAY fucking off!
5) Christianity is fucking insane. It is a derivation of judaism and an amalgamation of folklore from other cultures. Lee Strobel doesn't present ANY REAL facts. His logic has a predetermined agenda and he falsifies the facts to fit that narrative. He never even proves a jesus ever existed. He never proves a god exists, and faith is an excuse for not having facts!
6) You can cram this condescending statement up your proverbial ass. "I believe you people have more potential for Christ than anyone. I believe you are huge treasures for Christ. He loves you very much."
Arrogant statements like that don't gain you any brownie points and make you out to be an asshole!
7) We have done the NDE bullshit to death. NDE's are bullshit. Just check the archives here and you will see everything that has PROVED that NDEs are bullshit!
So there is NOTHINg new from you. Just the same old shit. I would love to have that 10 minutes back, what a fucking waste of time!
I don't know what to say I don't think anything I say you will like. I wish I could do or say something good.
"I started from the very beginning and concluded there are only two possibilities of our existence.
Possibility one, we are here by chance and that we evolved by evolution.
Possibility two some entity created us, aliens, GOD who knows."
You limit your choices to just two options, and in the second option, stating it was "by chance" is not correct.
The formation of this solar system and planet was a result of a gas/dust cloud condensing. That is not chance, that is the result of mass and gravity. And during many millions of years, the Earth was pummeled by asteroids containing all nature of elements. Then there was a period when the chemical soup was bombarded by various forms of radiation. laboratory experiments have conclusively proven that you can create complex molecules that are the precursor to "life". It just takes time. And this period of time was almost a billion years. When you have that long and so much chemical soup being bombarded by energy, eventually the right combination will be created.
This is something you need to wrap your head around, that these processes don't take a year, or even a century, but millions and millions of years.
Chance? If I throw a million darts at a dart board, chance will eventually give me on dart that hits the bullseye. That is how you apply the word "chance" to the formation of this universe and evolution.
@ryan
It is very clear to me Fred Hoyle does not understand evolution at all. Do not listen to him he does not know what he is talking about. (Here is a hint, evolution did not start at the current common manifestation of a cell!) Evolution perfectly explains all the rest of the examples you have mentioned.
You ever considered that life evolved to survive at the current energy density levels here on earth? Not the other way around? (energy density levels are NOT constant throughout the universe.)
Someone that appears to be at least fairly fluent in modern US english happens to pick Christianity? Gee what a surprise!
Not nearly skeptical enough!
Good job! Keep applying the skills you used to dismiss 6-8k year old earth and global flood silliness, now apply those skills to the overall jesus silliness, you are almost there, hey you even came to the right place to get real answers!
.
Oh dear, near death experiences as told by people on youtube. I would love to see just one case of a person raised in total isolation of any jesus stuff, to say they had an NDE with jesus and describe the jesus they met with enough detail to positively identify that jesus to the one mentioned in the various holy babbles and religious groups.
@LogicForTW It is very clear to me Fred Hoyle does not understand evolution at all
Fred Hoyle was a great astrophysicist from Yorkshire. He came up with the idea of stellar nucleosynthesis and was probably the first to use the term "Big Bang," though he disagreed with the concept. He rejected abiogenesis on Earth as too unlikely and instead put forward a panspermia theory. He thought the Earth had been seeded with life by comets.
I don't think he can be fairly described as a creationist in the usual meaning of that term.
He was also a noted science fiction writer.
Ah, I am busted, I did not look up the name, assumed it was some youtube preacher. I am guessing then, that either that quote is not real, or taken out of context.
@LogicForTW:
I think he actually said something like that. But I don't remember him talking about god creation. He thought something as complex as life couldn't have just happened here on this planet, and so he came up with his panspermia theory about life originating in space and seeding the planets. There was quite a lot of excitement when they found amino acids in comet debris. That seemed to support his panspermia theory. Of course, panspermia doesn't really eliminate the problem of abiogenesis. It just pushes it back one step.
@ryan
I don't believe that any god or gods exist. You can't hate a god that doesn't exist. Humans made up the gods they worship, and the religions they follow. I wouldn't follow any god, even if it was proven real. Ryan, if a god could be proven real, could you prove it was your god?
@Ryan: I was raised a Christian.
That one sentence should shatter the foundations of your belief. You were raised a Christian. You weren't created a Christian. You had to be taught, just as you were taught to read and write, ride a bike, drive a car.
We are born with certain instincts. Nobody has to teach us to eat, drink, sleep, walk, etc. But our connection with the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, which should be the core of our existence, has to be drilled into us. What's more, the flavor of Christianity you get depends on where you were born and the traditions of your family. Doesn't that give you pause?
We just so happen to have the perfect mass energy density for life to be possible.
And if the universe wasn't perfect for us, we wouldn't be here talking about it. That's all.
I totally agree with you and it has really bothered me my whole life. However, when I seek the truth, I keep coming up with the same conclusions. However I don't believe all things I used to I have changed some things as new evidence comes. I know many people who were born in an atheist home but because Christian.
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