If there was a GOD would you follow him? Check my bet

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Grinseed's picture
"which makes it extremely

"which makes it extremely improbable that any of these mechanism could have been created by natural causes."

It only seems improbable. It looks really improbable without a belief in god too. I am always in awe of the natural world around me.

Having a god gives you just one easy answer to those immensely complex questions you just asked - "God did it". He simply spoke it all into existence all fully formed...sort of cheapens the grand phenomena doesn't it?

Just for a moment Ryan, imagine there is no god, and try to perceive that the universe you see around you did develop without a designer, a creator, a god. Not by chance, but by natural forces, not supernatural forces. You would have to recognise how much more incredible this reality would have to be without a disembodied omnipotent mind outside time and space creating it. (Whatever all of that means)

And the mechanisms do exist for all of that to happen. Astronomy, physics, chemistry, biology and the other arms of science aren't belief systems, but methodologies, that help us understand the genesis and inexplicable complexity of life and the universe. We have not got it all yet, not by a long shot but we have come a hell of a long way in just a few hundred years using the scientific method.

Its only complex and "extremely improbable that any of these mechanisms could have been created by natural causes" because you have never read or tried to understand them because you think that kind of knowledge is beyond your grasp. It isn't.

I got as far as high school and didn't do very well either. I am not a smart guy, but it was after escaping formalised education that I began to really learn. When I really started reading, 30 years ago, I was lucky because all the great authors of science, Gribben, Gould, Hawking, Dawkins, and of course Sagan were just starting to take off. The publication of popular science books was in its heyday. They wrote elegantly simple books to explain the beautiful mechanisms of the universe and all within it. They led me back to writers like Asimov, an incredible science teacher. My reading list will outlive me, I know I will never have the time to read them all, but I have been very lucky to have read what I have and had reality opened up for me. These books have given me a greater and deeper sense of life and living and meaning than the poorly written bible ever did when I was a christian. It only depresses me now.

Those science books are still available. Some are even free online. No church or priest ever recommends them, so you never hear about them from that source.

It has already been said you have a lot ahead of you to learn, if you truly want to understand the world beyond a mere simple faith that an omnipotent being wished it all into existence. But remember that supreme being you continue to believe in, gave you a brain. What if he really wanted you to use it? To probe, to question, to dispute, to discover. What if on judgement day there is a general knowledge exam for entry into paradise? Better start studying, lol.

Ryan, with all sincerity start reading, today, asap, but take your time, read to understand. I wish I had started thirty years earlier than I did. There is so much fascinating stuff out there, and today, with the internet there is nothing you cannot research. Damn I only had books.
And a lot of folks on this forum have a greater understanding of it all than I do. I learn a lot here from them too. They're a good bunch here, including Mykcob4, who is very honest, hard, but honest and thats a combination you can always trust.

You have a great looking dog there in Ernie. I love dogs too. The relationship between humans and dogs is unique in nature. I always say that nature made the wolf, but we made, and remade ourselves with, the dog. My current hound is a small multimixed bitser who is the smartest damn dog of the eight I have had in my life. I love him more than most other people, because he is just a whole lot smarter than they are, lol.


Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Ryan

@ Ryan

I did try and warn you...

Grinseed's picture
@ Old Man....shhhhh....you'll

@ Old Man....shhhhh....you'll spook him.

Ryan Mahar's picture
Lol very funny, no trust me

Lol very funny, no trust me they have said worse things that should have spooked me a long time ago. Probably says bad things about me like why am I here but for some reason I am obsessed with this. I cant sleep because I keep thinking about it. Its driving me crazy.

Sky Pilot's picture


"Its driving me crazy."

Most people in America are crazy. You're in the majority.

Ryan Mahar's picture
I love that picture you have.

@ grinseed
Old Man....shhhhh....you'll spook him.

I love that picture you have. I think I can read his mind he is thinking BOOBIES!

algebe's picture


What is Einstein doing with that woman?

Ryan Mahar's picture
@ Grinseed

@ Grinseed

It only seems improbable. It looks really improbable without a belief in god too. I am always in awe of the

Wow this is the best response yet. I love your honesty. I just can’t get past the vast improbabilities. I am not interested in just saying God did it and that’s it. That’s why I have listened to so many creation versus evolution debates. My favorite debates are with Dr. Hugh Ross. Have you heard any of his debates? They are fascinating and he debates other PHD’s. Don’t listen to kent Hovand he is supposedly a Christian but he is way off track. You say, that I say “well God did it” are you not saying the same thing when you say we don’t know but we will figure it out someday? You don’t have an answer for the vast improbabilities of life just like I can’t introduce you to God. In all honesty neither of us know for sure all we can do is gather evidence and come to a conclusion from what we know. I have heard people say in history we have always figured out the mysteries of life like thunder. However, suppose we were looking at a Boeing 747 and you said we know it was created from a hurricane. We know the hurricane came down swept through the junk yard and created it we just don’t know how it happened but we will someday figure it out. I would say I am sorry I just don’t see how that could happen I have to believe there is a creator. My next step it to find out who that creator is. Keep in mind I am using Fred Hoyles example and illustration on the Boeing 747 example in terms of probability.

Yes and on the dog thing

I agree, I like dogs better than humans because humans are mean dogs are not.

CyberLN's picture
I’ve met some pretty mean

I’ve met some pretty mean dogs.

Ryan Mahar's picture
Generally speaking they are

Generally speaking they are great.

LogicFTW's picture
I generally like dogs. But

I generally like dogs. But dogs can definitely be mean.


mickron88's picture
"Generally speaking they are

Cyb: "I’ve met some pretty mean dogs."

Ryan: "Generally speaking they are great."

yeah..it's just the owner of the dog who has problems...

fair enough....

chimp3's picture


"However, suppose we were looking at a Boeing 747 and you said we know it was created from a hurricane. We know the hurricane came down swept through the junk yard and created it we just don’t know how it happened but we will someday figure it out. I would say I am sorry I just don’t see how that could happen I have to believe there is a creator. My next step it to find out who that creator is. Keep in mind I am using Fred Hoyles example and illustration on the Boeing 747 example in terms of probability."

No 747 was ever assembled by a hurricane. It did take thousands of years for humans to develop the technology which make the 747 possible. Humans built the 747 piece by piece. Bill Nye the Science Guy was one of its designers.

Evolution explains life's designs sufficiently. You might try reading some good books on the subject written for the layman. No offense, but I can tell you are better versed in Intelligent Design nonsense than biology.

Nyarlathotep's picture
ryan - I just can’t get past

ryan - I just can’t get past the vast improbabilities....Keep in mind I am using Fred Hoyles example and illustration on the Boeing 747 example in terms of probability.

You have no vast improbability, as no one can calculate the probability of life arising. You presumably think the probability is very low, but you have no justification for that, and neither did Hoyle (or anyone else).

David Killens's picture


"You say, that I say “well God did it” are you not saying the same thing when you say we don’t know but we will figure it out someday?"

When one states "well God did it", that becomes the end of the conversation and any attempts to pursue this topic. When we state "we do not know ... now", that definitely does not stop any conversation, and instead spurs further research and inquiries.

David Killens's picture
Dr Ross? He has been debunked

Dr Ross? He has been debunked by not only fellow scientists, but fellow Christian scientists.


I sincerely hope you discover more reasonable and reputable sources of information. And I must ask you this question, do you not check out the validity of people who make claims?

Grinseed's picture
"I just can’t get past the

"I just can’t get past the vast improbabilities."

That's obvious in nearly everything you have written so far.
That's why I am telling you to start reading the relevant material.
Forget the 707 and the hurricane in a junkyard, Fred Hoyle was an astronomer and not a particularly good one, and he was certainly not a biologist, just another christian apologist in a lab coat.
Evolution doesn't work like a hurricane, it is far more intricate and sublime.
Your current understanding is that god pulled creation out of a hat, like a rabbit, like some sideshow entertainment. That is frankly a piss poor evaluation of the universe you say you admire.
Just go read a book and not something from a quasi science christian publisher, something written by real scientists about natural science.

Sorry Ryan, I'm done. I have heard everything you have said and are going to say before from other doubters and I don't need to hear it again.
I often give this advice to christians and non christians who don't understand evolution. Its one of the true wonders of this world, one of humankind's greatest research achievements and people ignoring it is one of the greatest fucking crimes of life because its all about us, our dogs, the universe and our lives and place in it..
I hope you get there. I guarantee getting past the complexities will be worth it.


Sheldon's picture
"creation versus evolution

"creation versus evolution debates. "

There is no objective debate. Creationist myths are based on superstition, species evolution is a scientific fact that has withstood 150+ years of the most intense scientific scrutiny. It is supported by ALL the scientific evidence, even entirely new branches of science like genetics. Francis Collins the head of the human genome project is an evangelical Christian, and has stated that the evidence from genetics ON ITS OWN establishes species evolution as a fact beyond any objective doubt.

The creationist lobby and their propaganda mouthpiece the rebranded "ID" movement, peddle lies and misinformation.

Their latest shockingly dishonest tactic is to spend the vast sums they have at their disposal to create journals masquerading as scientific peer reviewed publications for the sole purpose of publishing their superstitious beliefs, and dishonestly pretending they have (any) scientific credibility, after decades of failing to get one shred of evidence published in mainstream scientific journals.

We even have creationist proponents on here like Breezy, pretending he has genuine scientific objections to the scientific fact of species evolution. Then pretending these have nothing to do with his religious beliefs. As if anyone denies scientific facts other than creationists and theists, and only then when those facts dispute their religious doctrine.

Ask him to list any scientific fact he denies that doesn't in any way dispute any part of his beliefs, try the question yourself?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Sheldon

@ Sheldon

* Standing Fucking Ovation*

mykcob4's picture

Take eyesight. This is an evolutionary marvel. Now I am no scientist and my explanation will be quite simple maybe even a bit inaccurate, however, there will be people here that will correct me and my explanation will be close enough to the truth that you should understand.
A long time ago plant-like creatures developed cells that could process energy from the sun for food. Some of these cells in the creature became more sensitive to the sun's rays. If you have ever watched a flower it turns itself toward the sun. Over time these cells became more and more sensitive until eventually, they became eyes. Even in your own brain everything you do you experience changes the pathways and signal receptors in your brain. That is evolution in action. So these plant-like creatures were developing not only eyes but the brain to process that information simultaneously. That is one "mechanism" that took millions of years to develop.

fishy1's picture
But wait ! This thread has

But wait ! This thread has been majorly derailed !

Why can't anybody just answer the original "hypothetical" question ? (And if you did, I'm sorry, I lost it in the shit show)

"IF" their were a God, would you follow him ?

Tin-Man's picture
@Fishy Re: "Why can't

@Fishy Re: "Why can't anybody just answer the original "hypothetical" question ?"

Well, Fishy, looks to me like the young man first needs to be "educated" for a bit, as it seems obvious he does not even really understand the question he asked. Therefore, until he reaches a point of understanding the question, any answers we may give would be even LESS comprehensive to him. But if we can get him to start understanding his question, there will be no need for us to answer it for him.

Sky Pilot's picture
fishy1's picture
Hey Diotrephes, "if" I had

Hey Diotrephes, "if" I had rock solid proof that any of those mythical beings you posted links to, were real..... And then "if" they told me, to follow and worship them or else I would burn in hell for all of eternity, shit yes I'd follow and worship them !

Fortunately those beings don't exist and we have nothing to worry about :-)

Sky Pilot's picture


Are you saying that you can only visualize Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews and the God of the armies, and zombie Jesus, the Jew as possible deities?

Tin-Man's picture
@Dio Re: God pic links

@Dio Re: God pic links

Not that familiar with rest of them, but Anubis rocks! Wouldn't necessarily worship him, but I would show respect, at least. *chuckle*

LogicFTW's picture

I dunno...
Maybe? Seems like a lot of teenage angst. Never watched the show, so I am judging a show-by-the-cover.

Tin-Man's picture


Oh, dear. Just knowing a show like that exists is disturbing on SO MANY levels. *wringing hands nervously*

LogicFTW's picture
I apologize for inflicting

I apologize for inflicting that pain/evil on you. I would take it back if I could.

Or perhaps I am a sadist. Buwahahhaa!

Ryan Mahar's picture
Ya I thought it would be

Ya I thought it would be interesting and several did answer it so far. Everyone said no they have no interest in God. I thought maybe one or two would say yes but none.


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