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@Jordan
This is precisely what you see in a mystical experience, consciousness seems to merge with a perception that is outside of space and time. This is universally reported. I brought this point up on Truth Wanted once. I really got to clip that and put it on my YT channel. And I noticed how you put quotes around the word "he," the ancient mystics referred to God as The Father, not because they were referencing God as a paternalistic deity or entity, but rather they used this term in contrast with mother nature, God as the Absolute. I would agree that you cannot "see" God, if we're talking about your physical eyes. This temporary fundamental transformation of perception happens within a phenomenon in consciousness. The Absolute is directly experienced as a kind of merging or dissolution for the mystic.
Agreed. To take an excerpt from the link above: Philosophers and religious adherents who aim to pattern their life after the Absolute reality sometimes claim to have experienced the Absolute. They report mystical experiences, feelings of oneness, transcendence of their everyday personality or of personhood altogether. Another way a Hindu mystic might say of the world is that the manifest reality is the relative that continuously interpenetrates the Absolute in order to manifest. They refer to this as Maya.
Alan Watts was once asked, "Why does God hide from the sight of so many?" There's many ways to have a direct experience of God, and so if you spend a lifetime avoiding those methods, then you may finally have this direct experience prior to the moment of death, since mystical experiences are speculated to occur in near-death. However, having that experience now while you're in the midst of life, then you will absolutely not be surprised when you encounter it again at death. This is why mystics and even the cancer patients in some of the research on mystical experiences completely lose their fear of death. Not a diminishing in fear of death, but a complete loss of the fear of death. It's even expressed by some psychonauts who share their experiences on YouTube involving these type of religious/spiritual/mystical experiences.
We have developed senses, but it's not what you hear with your ears or what you see with your eyes or feel through touch. There is nothing that you know about God that is God. There is no idea of God that you can entertain that is God. There is no possible thought that you can have about God that is God. It makes no difference what your idea may be or what your concept may be, it remains an idea or a concept, and an idea or a concept is not God. And so what every person, theist or atheist, must eventually realize is that s/he has to rise above all his concepts of God before s/he can have an experience of God.
Now that is truly hilarious. Seriously it's a joke right? How the fuck can you identify any experience as being derived from something you have relinquished all concepts of?
Oh I just experienced a red balloon!
So fucking what?
No you don't understand, this was a real red balloon, and the ones we think are red balloons are not.
So what is a red balloon?
I can't define it, no one can, but you'll know when you've experienced it.
How do we do that?
Rise above all your preconceptions of a red balloon, then scoff a handful of strong hallucinogenics.
That is truly fucking hilarious, even after all the woo woo nonsense you've posted so far Kafei, that is pretty special.
If god is not phenomenal, then it does not exist.
@Jordan
You and I both have the necessary tools to separate reality from human made fiction/lies. We use these tools everyday. If we did not, it is likely we would not be still alive, or at the very least we would need special care to shelter us from "reality."
Here is an oft used example of mine that illustrates this ability just about all of us humans have:
You, Jordan owe me 1 million dollars.
Prove to me that you don't. (This is similar to demanding people prove god does not exist.)
Have you realized yet, you cannot prove that you do not actually owe me 1 million dollars? Figure out why you are unable to do this? My claim that you owe me 1 million dollars is absurd, yet you cannot "prove" that you do not owe me 1 million dollars. Since you cannot prove that you do not owe me 1 million dollars, are you going to pay me 1 million dollars?
Of course not! Even if you cannot prove that you do not owe me 1 million dollars, you are not going to give me 1 million dollars. Why not? Well because you realize I am the one that made the claim, it is on ME to prove that you owe me 1 million dollars. Of which I have zero real world evidence to show that you owe me 1 million dollars. You can and should laugh and reject the silly notion.
The exact same thing applies to all god/religious ideas. Saying "god" is not made up matter and is outside of the properties is not proof of anything. It is nonsense, it is absurd. Any sane person should instantly reject this absurd claim unless they provide real, powerful evidence, ("god's fingerprints in the world around us" is NOT evidence.) You also earlier just defined your god idea out of existence, you stated god is outside of these properties (of matter, created time etc) How can he be outside of all that yet also leave "fingerprints." You badly contradicted your own god definition from one paragraph to the next.
We humans have already achieved a lot in expanding our ability to gather sensory data. And you know what these new tools of expanded senses have given us? Even more evidence of evolution and even more evidence that the various man made god ideas are utterly ridiculous.
In today's age, and with access to the internet and so much information available to us in seconds from the comfort of our home, the excuse of lack of knowledge grows even more thin. This is why religion is rapidly fading in today's age in much of the world that has uncensored access to the internet, rising literacy, greater education, and uncensored access to opposing ideas.
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▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
▮Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
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@Jordan: "It’s no wonder we cannot see God. The very definition of God is God is not made up of matter."
Ummmm...... I hate to bring this to your attention but the "definition" of god is necessarily made up of matter. Perhaps you do not understand the word "definition."
1A statement of the exact meaning of a word, especially in a dictionary. ... 1.1 An exact statement or description of the nature, scope, or meaning of something. ... Late Middle English: from Latin definitio(n-), from the verb definire ‘set bounds to’ (see define).
You can not make a statement without it being made up of matter. If you write it, you are using paper and ink or your computer screen.... whatever...... it is written matter. If you speak it, you are using sound waves, vocal chords and producing matter. If you think it you are producing neural pathways and bio-electrical connections that can be measured in an MRI or CAT scan. A "definition" by its very nature is always made of matter.
Perhaps you are contending that "God" is not made of matter. Well then..... what does it matter? If there is no matter there, how in the fuck could you possibly know it is there. Please demonstrate anything that is not a product of or exists without matter. Existence means matter.
@Jordan
"Not being able to observe God is not a great reason not to believe in God since trying to reason why we should be able to observe “him” is outside our realm of comprehension."
Bullshit.
In your statements you claimed many attributes for your god. Therefore even you can comprehend your god. But when it comes down to one of the hard questions "why can we not observe a god"?, you invent "oh no, we can't go there" lame excuse.
If you can comprehend many attributes of your god, you can comprehend your god.
@Jordan: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ..... Thank's for sharing.....
HEY EVERYONE: God is beyond time and space and Jordan knows that because he has been there.
OH WAIT: God is beyond comprehension..... Unless you are Jordan.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA "But if you think you understand God... You are a fool." HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ......
I hope Jordan hangs around. This is the classic Christian bullshit we all know and love. No more of the presuppositionalist nonsense, just pure bible-belt gibberish.
Did anyone take a look at the youtube videos he provided?
@ JORDAN, YES - I even did a point by point breakdown of one/ All bullshit and no definitions. Drug studies, not studies on mystical states or spiritualism. There is no operational definition of mystical states or spirit.
@Kafei: There is a dip-shit ignorant interpretation of the trinity as well. It's called "The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." Now how do we know which dip-shit, inane, ill informed assertion is TRUE?
@Cognostic By means of Theoria which holds roots in the Greek Henosis, this is a direct experience of the Absolute or what neuroscientists today are calling a "complete" mystical experience, that's how you distinguish from an authentic interpretation and true spiritual knowledge vs. false spiritual knowledge.
@Theoria: is the Greek word for "contemplation". So because someone contemplates spirituality they can distinguish false spiritual knowledge from true spiritual knowledge? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ----- Horseshit!
Henosis (Ancient Greek: ἕνωσις) is the classical Greek word for mystical "oneness", "union" or "unity. HA HA HA HA --- This is what you got......
(PSYCH WARDS ARE FULL OF PEOPLE WITH DIRECT EXPERIENCE OF THE ABSOLUTE.)
WTF is "Absolute" Are we just using synonyms for spiritual and mystical which have not yet been defined. Defining Woo Woo with more woo woo is Bullshit.
Calling anything a "Complete Mystical Experience" Is just more BS. Are some people having incomplete mystical experiences. How do you know? NOTHING HAS BEEN DEFINED YET.
God: Master of Delusion
Historicity of Jesus (Son of God and God)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The historicity of Jesus is the question if Jesus of Nazareth can be regarded as a historical figure. Virtually all New Testament scholars and Near East historians, applying the standard criteria of historical-critical investigation, find that the historicity of Jesus is effectively certain,[1][2] although they differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the details of his life that have been described in the gospels.[3][4][5][note 1]
The question of the historicity of Jesus is part of the study of the historical Jesus as undertaken in the quest for the historical Jesus and the scholarly reconstructions of the life of Jesus, based primarily on critical analysis of the gospel texts and applying the standard criteria of critical-historical investigation,[6][7][8] and methodologies for analyzing the reliability of primary sources and other historical evidence.[9]
While scholars have criticized Jesus scholarship for religious bias and lack of methodological soundness,[note 2] with very few exceptions such critics generally do support the historicity of Jesus and reject the Christ myth theory that Jesus never existed.
@ferguson1951 - FFS - Which Jesus. How do you know he actually existed. If he did exist how do you know he was the son of some being who you have not yet proved exists. More WooWoo on top of WooWoo, piled on top of Woo Woo. Can you support a single assertion you have made?
For thousands of years, the only people doing any investigation into the existence of Jesus were the theists. That has changed. Get ready to bend over and kiss your ass goodbye. 25% of youth under the age of 25 are atheists. Get ready for an Atheist world. It is becoming okay for religious scholars to challenge the status quo and they are doing it. Atheism is on the rise and Empty Pew Syndrome is killing Church business all across America.
@fergie
Even if I did concede that some itinerant unemployable rabble-rouser gang leader/pimp who came from an extremely dysfunctional family did live at that time and was executed for his crimes, so what?
What is important is proving any miracles or supernatural claims.
.
Christianity
What is the historical evidence that Jesus Christ lived and died?
Today some claim that Jesus is just an idea, rather than a real historical figure, but there is a good deal of written evidence for his existence 2,000 years ago
Dr Simon Gathercole (from The Guardian - UK)
How confident can we be that Jesus Christ actually lived?
The historical evidence for Jesus of Nazareth is both long-established and widespread. Within a few decades of his supposed lifetime, he is mentioned by Jewish and Roman historians, as well as by dozens of Christian writings. Compare that with, for example, King Arthur, who supposedly lived around AD500. The major historical source for events of that time does not even mention Arthur, and he is first referred to 300 or 400 years after he is supposed to have lived. The evidence for Jesus is not limited to later folklore, as are accounts of Arthur.
What did non-Christian authors say about Jesus?
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As far as we know, the first author outside the church to mention Jesus is the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, who wrote a history of Judaism around AD93. He has two references to Jesus. One of these is controversial because it is thought to be corrupted by Christian scribes (probably turning Josephus’s negative account into a more positive one), but the other is not suspicious – a reference to James, the brother of “Jesus, the so-called Christ”.
About 20 years after Josephus we have the Roman politicians Pliny and Tacitus, who held some of the highest offices of state at the beginning of the second century AD. From Tacitus we learn that Jesus was executed while Pontius Pilate was the Roman prefect in charge of Judaea (AD26-36) and Tiberius was emperor (AD14-37) – reports that fit with the timeframe of the gospels. Pliny contributes the information that, where he was governor in northern Turkey, Christians worshipped Christ as a god. Neither of them liked Christians – Pliny writes of their “pig-headed obstinacy” and Tacitus calls their religion a destructive superstition.
@ferguson1951 Jesus Christ was actually mentioned in Jewish sources even a century before he was supposed to have been born. The reality is that the Jesus Christ myth took a long time to develop, and existed in many forms. Why should any sources been taken to refer to a Jesus who actually lived, anymore than sources that mention King Arthur?
Many Christians throughout history have described themselves as brothers of Christ.
There are no contemporary historical sources relating to Jesus of Nazareth, even though many insignificant figures in the region are attested to.
@Sapporo: LOL - Or said another way ---- "There are no sources of evidence, contemporary to the life of this Jesus character, that support his existence and yet we do have documents supporting the existence of at other prophets or supposed messiahs of the time Jesus was said to be alive." All we got for Jesus is one big GAP.
It is also true that there are no contemporary historical sources relating to a Jesus of Nazareth. Would "contemporary historical" be an oxymoron?
@ Fergie
I am so tired of theists misrepresenting historical texts and confusing historiography and theology with actual historical fact.
You are wrong about the second Josephus entry. Tacitus was reporting beliefs of the christians sect in Rome some 40 years after the alleged events they were blamed for.
Her is a statement for you; " there is no contemporary evidence for the jesus figure as described in the gospels, none" "There is not a shred of corroboration for the magical events described in the gospels. "
That a divine jesus figure existed is highly improbable, the verdict on a entirely human jesus figure is "not proven" .
Please read my posts to other theists and apologists, at least you read wiki.....but you haven't read anything else by the looks.
You cannot observe God because nobody has ever seen Him, except Jesus.
You cannot observe Jesus because He is not on Facebook as you would like. Many saints have seen Jesus and Mary but of course you are too obtuse to even consider that, You discard religion a priori, that is what you call logic,
@ferguson1951
"Jesus" saw "god?" How do you know that? Did "jesus"... "saw" ..."god?"
Was it before "jesus" was born to a "virgin?"
If yes: (wtf, that poor woman!)
If no: then no one has seen "god" alive.. Unless you are saying Jesus saw god for the first time while alive, but only "he" could see "god."
Either way the whole thing that "jesus" "saw" "god" is ridiculous.
Also, all those quotation marks? They are around words that have BIG! if scenarios around the words.
Search jesus on facebook, there are 1000's of jesus's on facebook. Most of them are of hispanic origin, a few random folks who named themselves jesus however, think they are of "divine" origin.
Yep I discard religion, and I have realllllllly good reasons to. Thousands of them. Discarding religion/god is actually super easy, you just turn on your thinking brain and think for yourself instead of listening to what other people tell you to think. You don't even have to listen to me, I know I am unlikely to convince you, all you have to do is spend some time in reflection on what is real and what is not, and how to tell, all without outside influence "telling" you what to think.
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▮I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
▮Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
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Christ your posts are relentlessly stupid. Have even read the bible?
Genesis 18
And the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day.
Genesis 12:7
The Lord appeared to to Abram and said,...
Genesis 17:1
Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him,
Acts 7:2
And he said, "Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia,
Just after a cursory search, you really are utterly clueless, even for a theist.
Nonsense, no matter how many times you repeat this lie your superstitious guff is being rejected because not one theists can demonstrate a shred of objective evidence.
Ignorant! I am going by heart but I seem to remember that Abraham covered his eyes and said I am afraid because nobody has seen God and remained alive.
But of course, you are too obtuse to understand.
Really,I am so glad I have enough brains not to attend university.
Simply, I seem to conclude that one becomes an atheist because he has not enough sense for anything else.
@ferguson1951
You are slipping dude, if you are going to troll for responses you need to up your game some or everyone is going to stop responding to you as you are becoming increasingly obvious.
Nice try,, you made an arse of yourself yet again, with a claim that demonstrates unequivocally the bible is one more thing you are woefully ill-informed about, and this latest tantrum isn't fooling anyone. As for you not having the brains to attend university that's been made apparent from your posts from the start, though why anyone would rejoice in their lack of intelligence is rather bizarre, but as has been pointed out, you do seem to revel in your ignorance, as if you're proud of it. So that last sentence is yet another piece of comedy gold from you. Again atheism is defined in the dictionary, no matter how often you spout your ignorant nonsense.
I read the whole Bible once and the New Testament many times. In fact, that was Moses. But I am positive God the Father never appeared to anyone. You are the one who makes a fool of himself. God must have appeared to Abram in a dream or a vision but no more.
In fact,
Genesis 18 New International Version (NIV)
The Three Visitors
18 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
IGNORANT!!!!!
This time I mean it. I am leaving this forum. You are deeply PREJUDICED against Christianity and Christians, That is the way they brainwashed you to think at university. And they have the cheek to call that brainwashing logic. I am also sick of the totally obtuse way in which you go on asking for evidence of the existence of God. There is no evidence!!! God cleans his arse with science and logic. He is far superior to that garbage, But you are on a one-track mind and you just cannot see left or right. It really is too much for me. Your intellectual arrogance revolts me so much so that there is no way one can make you produce a thought outside the ones that your lecturers carved in your brains . Your brains are in a fix, Like frozen food. There is no sign of flexibility. Owing to your university teachings, you are no longer able to think for yourselves, You keep reapting the same things like a scratched record. It really is too much for me.
Once you have learnt to enter into relationship with God. Once you made friends with God, you don't need any evidence: YOU KNOW IT, you nerd!
@Fergie Re: "This time I mean it. I am leaving this forum."
In the words of "Naked Eyes"....
Never had a doubt in the beginning
Never a doubt
Trusted you true in the beginning
I loved you right through
Arm in arm we laughed like kids
At all the silly things we did
You made me promises, promises
Knowing I'd believe
Promises, promises
You knew you'd never keep
Second time around, I'm still believing
The words that you said
You said you'd always be here
"In love forever" still repeats in my head
You can't finish what you start
If this is love it breaks my heart
You made me promises, promises
You knew you'd never keep
Promises, promises
Why do I believe?
@Ferguson 1951
Bye then, you dim-witted buffoon.
@ Fergie
Do hurry up and fuck off then , there's a good lad. Half in half out just lets all the warmth from the kitchen.
Once you have learnt to enter into relationship with Eric the Rainbow Farting Unicorn That Lives in My Garage. Once you made friends with Eric the Rainbow Farting Unicorn That Lives in My Garage, you don't need any evidence: YOU KNOW IT, you nerd!
Any bets on the final, final, last, last, last, ULTIMATE leaving post from Fergie?
FMD. Theists are getting worse and worse quality on these forums.
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