Why can we not observe God?

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Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Kafei

@ Kafei

You really are so full of your own shite are you not? I asked you exactly where your "professionals" stated the conclusions you have reached and printed here. You didn't
look:

Please point me in paragraph and line numbers where all these "professionals" (Identified by name) specifically conclude that " consider these mystical states of consciousness evidence for the Perennial philosophy, and the divine or God is most understood within this particular context.
Otherwise this will, like many of your claims , be dismissed as a fallacious claim to an non existent authority.
I've done that. You can find that here and here.

NO YOU FUCKING CAN'T. I asked for an explicit statement. You give links to nothing. I asked for specific Paragraph and Line numbers in the academic papers that bear out your assertion. You have given us nothing.

Because they do not exist.

The rest of your reply is specious nonsense until you address this request.

Or is it. like most of your ramblings a non existent wishlist from your own psyche?

Oh, BTW you already admitted to being a drug user in previous posts. I shall start keeping a tally of your carelessness with the truth in future.

Kafei's picture
It was one of the first links

It was one of the first links I provided. I did, indeed, fulfill your request.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Kafei

@ Kafei

No. It does not do as you claimed. I asked for line entry where they bear out your assertion I repeated. You have given me a a link to fucking IMGUR!!!!!

Try to read, comprehend and answer the fucking question.

I said Please point me in paragraph and line numbers where all these "professionals" (Identified by name) specifically conclude that " consider these mystical states of consciousness evidence for the Perennial philosophy, and the divine or God is most understood within this particular context"."

Your link merely provides a list of publications. Probably written by yourself. They are NOT WHAT I REQUESTED.
You claimed an exact phrase quoted from your post, was written or referenced by 'professionals". I called you out asking which professionals said or wrote those words in their academic papers.

You have failed again in providing exact references to back up your fanciful claims.

All of your nonsense can be dismissed, especially this most recent claim as a fallacious appeal to authority without the references I requested. I couldn't find anyone writing what you claimed all these 'professionals' believe.....except yourself of course.

Kafei's picture
Did you even review the link?

Did you even review the link? It displays precisely what you asked for. It lists several scholars who define mystical states of consciousness in accordance with the Perennial philosophy.

Tin-Man's picture
Re: Perennial philosophy

Re: Perennial philosophy

Ya know, if you really think about it hard enough and long enough from multiple angles, Perennial Philosophy is a gift that just keeps on giving... and giving, and giving, and giving, and giving, and giving, and giving, and giving, and giving, and giving, and giving, and giving, and giving, and............

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Kafei

@ Kafei

Now your lies are getting tedious:

I asked for an explicit statement. You give links to nothing. I asked for specific Paragraph and Line numbers in the academic papers that bear out your assertion. You have given us nothing.

Third time of asking. I suspect you are leary of actually backing up your words with references as requested because THEY DO NOT fucking EXIST.

NOWHERE in any of the academic papers can I find the phrase you asserted "professionals "use. NO fucking where.

So you and your assertions can be assigned to the bonfire that all crackpot theists find themselves when they lie that once too often on these pages.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Kafei - It was one of the

Kafei - It was one of the first links I provided.

Does not appear to be a peer-reviewed source. It appears to be related to the peer-reviewed Journal of Psychology and Christianity; a theology publication for Christian ministers and Christian psychologists. Let's look at some of the articles they've published:

  • Philosophical Foundations for Clinical Supervision within a Christian Worldview
  • Training Supervisors to Integrate Psychology and Christianity
  • A Christian Application of Multimodal Therapy
  • Integrating Scripture with Parent Training in Behavioral Interventions
  • Use of Prayer and Scripture in Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy
  • Christ-Like Love and Forgiveness: A Biblical Foundation for Counseling Practice

----------------------------------------------------
This is theology; and that should be obvious to any rational human being who even gave it a casual glance.

Kafei's picture
It's also contained in the

It's also contained in the research happening at Johns Hopkins. In fact, that paper you're referring to was written by Dr. Bill Richards, a member involved in the research. The bulk of the research they've produced have been peer-reviewed and published in The Scientific Journal of Psychopharmacology with the exception of their most recent survey study which was published in The Public Library of Science back on April 23rd, 2019.

Nyarlathotep's picture
@Kafei

@Kafei

If there is serious material supporting what you say, why don't you link that? Why would you link youtube videos and snippets from theology sources?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Kafei - ...that paper you're

Kafei - ...that paper you're referring to was written by Dr. Bill Richards...

What paper are you talking about? This is starting to sound more and more like your past craziness here on AR.

Kafei's picture
The one you mentioned and

The one you mentioned and bullet listed other publications. There's no "past craziness" involved here, just raw science I'm citing. Even the "Youtube videos," btw, are based on the peer-reviewed material. They're speaking directly towards what they've established at Johns Hopkins. The CSP website is hosting the peer-reviewed studies which have been published in The Scientific Journal of Psychopharmacology. I recommend reading the "2017 mystical experiences chapter" as it sums up the research rather nicely. The most recent survey study was published in PLOS (Public Library of Science).

Nyarlathotep's picture
Kafei - The one you mentioned

Kafei - The one you mentioned...

You are doing it again. Which fucking paper?

Kafei's picture
Obviously this one. Isn't

Obviously this one. Isn't that the one you referenced earlier?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Kafei - ...that paper you're

Kafei - ...that paper you're referring to was written by Dr. Bill Richards...

Kafei - Obviously this one.

You linked an image, of a document, that mentions other documents. So again: which fucking paper?

Kafei's picture
The image is an excerpt from

The image is an excerpt from that specific paper. The url on the bottom right is where the paper is hosted.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Kafei

@ Kafei

You are wriggling and lying Kafei.

I ask again (copy of my previous post)

I said 'Please point me in [the direction of the]paragraph and line numbers where all these "professionals" (Identified by name) specifically conclude that " consider these mystical states of consciousness evidence for the Perennial philosophy, and the divine or God is most understood within this particular context"."

Your link merely provides a list of publications. Probably written by yourself. They are NOT WHAT I REQUESTED.
You claimed an exact phrase quoted from your post, was written or referenced by 'professionals". I called you out asking which professionals said or wrote those words in their academic papers.

Answer the fucking question. Line Number, Paragraph, Publication and Authors....or admit you just fucking made it up like most of the bullshit you have spouted on these pages.

Kafei's picture
@Old man shoutsYour link

@Old man shouts

Your link merely provides a list of publications. Probably written by yourself. They are NOT WHAT I REQUESTED. You claimed an exact phrase quoted from your post, was written or referenced by 'professionals". I called you out asking which professionals said or wrote those words in their academic papers.

Answer the fucking question. Line Number, Paragraph, Publication and Authors....or admit you just fucking made it up like most of the bullshit you have spouted on these pages.

Here's the excerpt from the paper. It lists precisely what you asked for, you asked which scholars are defining mystical states of consciousness in accordance with the Perennial philosophy. Well, there it is. I didn't write that paper myself. I believe the author was Dr. Bill Richards, and citation is The Journal of Transpersonal Psychology, 2009, Vol. 41, No. 2, page 140. The other citation I've mentioned is a summary chapter of the bulk of studies which have been published in The Scientific Journal of Psychopharmacology.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Kafei

@ Kafei

And once again you give us the same tired old link which DOES NOT BEAR OUT YOUR CLAIM....

Are you going to stop obfuscating and avoiding my request for the exact paper, chapter, paragraph and line where your alleged "professionals" all agree on the assertion that you made?

Or will you finally admit your statement was a lie and there is no such assertion in any of the academic papers?

For your convenience I once again reproduce your post where you claimed "professionals"consider these mystical states of consciousness evidence for the Perennial philosophy, and the divine or God is most understood within this particular context".

To be accurate your quote in the link to fucking IMGUR FFS says " Mystical States of Consciousness which several scholars now define in accordance with Perennial Philosophy"
Nowhere fucking near the claim you made, nowhere fucking near. .

We have seen this tiresome avoidance tactic from many theists and woo merchants coming through these forums. You are just one more in the long line of failed proselytisers and charlatans who deliberately misquote, misinterpret and downright lie about academic papers to further their fantasy agenda. .

Nyarlathotep's picture
Kafei - ...and citation is

Kafei - ...and citation is The Journal of Transpersonal Psychology, 2009, Vol. 41, No. 2, page 140.

How hard was that? Why did it take 1/2 a dozen requests from us and refusals from you for you to finally tell us the article?

Oh btw: that is a journal that services the topic of spirituality. Not likely to convince many people here, as I'm sure anyone who is still paying attention to you was hoping for something a little more concrete.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Kafei

@ Kafei

Here's the excerpt from the paper. It lists precisely what you asked for, you asked which scholars are defining mystical states of consciousness in accordance with the Perennial philosophy.

Nope and No. Once again you are evading the direct question. That is not an "excerpt from a paper it is a link to a fucking IMGUR post AGAIN. Fucks sake.

"That is not precisely what I asked for" Once again you evade the question. You asserted and I quote again:
I said: Please point me in [the direction of] paragraph and line numbers where all these "professionals" (Identified by name) specifically conclude that " consider these mystical states of consciousness evidence for the Perennial philosophy, and the divine or God is most understood within this particular context".

The The Journal of Transpersonal Psychology, 2009, Vol. 41, No. 2, page 140 you cited does not say that at all. In fact nowhere in any of the research does your conclusion or attribution to any involved in the research appear. It seems to have come only from you and nowhere else.

I don't care about the bulk of the studies you quote as they do not reflect the conclusion you have typed and NO ONE appears to have written or even said it....

We have to assume you are lying. You cannot produce the citation for your claim. It seems you read the research to reinforce your rather ridiculous ideas that you then regurgitate on these forums.

Admit you lied about your claims

Kafei's picture
@Old man shoutsThe The

@Old man shouts

The The Journal of Transpersonal Psychology, 2009, Vol. 41, No. 2, page 140 you cited does not say that at all. In fact nowhere in any of the research does your conclusion or attribution to any involved in the research appear. It seems to have come only from you and nowhere else.

That's not just an "imgur" link. That's a screenshot of an excerpt of the very paper I'm citing, and I listed the very page where you could find that particular relevant excerpt.

I don't care about the bulk of the studies you quote as they do not reflect the conclusion you have typed and NO ONE appears to have written or even said it....

Well, it's not simply found in that particular paper, I was pointing out the fact that it's also found in the other studies published in The Scientific Journal of Psychopharmacology.

We have to assume you are lying. You cannot produce the citation for your claim. It seems you read the research to reinforce your rather ridiculous ideas that you then regurgitate on these forums.

Well, I'm not lying, I gave you concrete directions on where to find this, Nyarlathotep had no problem recognizing this. The only issue he had was the team of professionals have "CSP" as the title. I can understand that atheistic bias, however science isn't off-limits when it comes to studying religion. That's the entire reason the neuroscience of religion exists at all.

Admit you lied about your claims

I haven't lied about anything, my friend. I've fulfilled your request. It's not my fault you cannot recognize this fact. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a liar, and so you should quit making false accusations.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Kafei

@ Kafei

I asked you specifically for the Paper, paragraph and line references that contain the phrase you claimed "professionals" etc

Once again I copy the question I asked and that you have failed more than 5 times to answer: I said Please point me in [the direction of] paragraph and line numbers where all these "professionals" (Identified by name) specifically conclude that " consider these mystical states of consciousness evidence for the Perennial philosophy, and the divine or God is most understood within this particular context".

Nowhere in any papers or links that you have provided (despite your obfuscation and repeated lies) has the phrase: " consider these mystical states of consciousness evidence for the Perennial philosophy, and the divine or God is most understood within this particular context".appeared

Nor have you once provided the paper, line and reference numbers I requested.

Well, it's not simply found in that particular paper, I was pointing out the fact that it's also found in the other studies published in The Scientific Journal of Psychopharmacology.

As I asked: EXACTLY FUCKING WHERE?

You made a claim now you are running around lying and trying to avoid giving exact references for your claim. Despite many times of asking. This inevitably leads to the conclusion that the claims you made are false and do not fucking exist.

I haven't lied about anything, my friend. I've fulfilled your request. It's not my fault you cannot recognize this fact.

I am not 'friends' with liars. Publication. Paper. Paragraph. Line. Exact Phrase.. it IS YOUR FAULT.

ell, I'm not lying, I gave you concrete directions on where to find this, Nyarlathotep had no problem recognizing this. The only issue he had was the team of professionals have "CSP" as the title.

You do really try and weasel out of stuff do you not?
I think if you read Nyars replies he had considerably more problems than just "CSP in the title" Just another example of your carelessness with the truth.

(Edit Tags and request for exact phrase reference)

Kafei's picture
I'm beginning to think Old

I'm beginning to think Old man shouts isn't just a clever name. I'm going to attempt to clarify this once more, hopefully we can make some progress. You don't seem to be arguing that Johns Hopkins is overdosing people anymore. At least we've cleared that up, so we're making some progress.

I asked you specifically for the Paper, paragraph and line references that contain the phrase you claimed "professionals" etc

And I provided that.

Once again I copy the question I asked and that you have failed more than 5 times to answer: I said Please point me in [the direction of] paragraph and line numbers where all these "professionals" (Identified by name) specifically conclude that " consider these mystical states of consciousness evidence for the Perennial philosophy, and the divine or God is most understood within this particular context".

In that particular instance, I was paraphrasing what Dr. Bill Richards has spoken about in his lectures relative to the research. It's expressed slightly different in the peer-reviewed material. Dr. Bill Richards is one of the professionals involved in this psilocybin research happening at Johns Hopkins University.

Nowhere in any papers or links that you have provided (despite your obfuscation and repeated lies) has the phrase: " consider these mystical states of consciousness evidence for the Perennial philosophy, and the divine or God is most understood within this particular context".appeared

I provided the link to the lecture where that's mentioned. The lectures are, indeed, based on what's been established at Johns Hopkins.

Nor have you once provided the paper, line and reference numbers I requested.

BS! I did precisely that. Even Nyarlathotep acknowledged so. You must've overlooked it or confused it with the lecture.

Well, it's not simply found in that particular paper, I was pointing out the fact that it's also found in the other studies published in The Scientific Journal of Psychopharmacology.

As I asked: EXACTLY FUCKING WHERE?

You made a claim now you are running around lying and trying to avoid giving exact references for your claim. Despite many times of asking. This inevitably leads to the conclusion that the claims you made are false and do not fucking exist.

I haven't lied about anything, my friend. I've fulfilled your request. It's not my fault you cannot recognize this fact.

I am not 'friends' with liars. Publication. Paper. Paragraph. Line. Exact Phrase.. it IS YOUR FAULT.

ell, I'm not lying, I gave you concrete directions on where to find this, Nyarlathotep had no problem recognizing this. The only issue he had was the team of professionals have "CSP" as the title.

You do really try and weasel out of stuff do you not?
I think if you read Nyars replies he had considerably more problems than just "CSP in the title" Just another example of your carelessness with the truth.

(Edit Tags and request for exact phrase reference)

I'm going to it once more for you. Pay close attention, because obviously have not thus far. You're only one here that seems confused. The link I offered wasn't simply a link to IMGUR, it was a screenshot of the excerpt I'm referencing within the research I am citing. And in that particular paper, you have the summary chapter of all the peer-reviewed research happening at Johns Hopkins to the date that paper was published in 2017. The excerpt reads, "The idea of the "common core" of mystical experience is consistent with the notion of the "perennial philosophy" in which a "immemorial and universal" substate underlies all religions and spiritual paths and is reflected in "every religious tradition... " That could be found in their 2017 mystical chapter in the section titled "What are mystical experiences," page 6. You can also find that paper hosted at the CSP website.

Now, the other reference was to Dr. Bill Richards paper. The screenshot was in reference to the excerpt that reads, "Mystical States of Consciousness, which several scholars now define in accordance with the Perennial Philosophy (Huxley 1945) or the so-called ‘‘Universal Core’’ (Hood, 2006; Kelly, Kelly, Crabtree, Gauld, Grosso, & Greyson, 2007; Stace,1960)"

Now, the specific citation and page is precisely what I offered, you can find that at The Journal of Transpersonal Psychology, 2009, Vol. 41, No. 2, page 140. It lists all the professionals who define mystical states of consciousness in accordance with the Perennial philosophy which is precisely what you asked for.

Hopefully, this clears up your confusion about these things.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Kafei

@ Kafei

More lies and obfuscations that I, fir one have heard before when theists are trapped in their lies..

You were asked for specific Paper, chapter, paragraph and line where the phrase you claimed to have been used actually appeared in print.

First you say:

And I provided that.

No you didnt you fucking muppet. You supplied several times links to an IMGUR fucking post that did not contain that phrase. Then when pressed you finally came up with line references to a a publication that deals in Spirituality FFS and that STILL DID NOT CONTAIN THE PHRASE YOU ASSERTED WAS SUPPORTED BY "Professionals"

Then you say in response to my request:

In that particular instance, I was paraphrasing what Dr. Bill Richards has spoken about in his lectures relative to the research. It's expressed slightly different in the peer-reviewed material. Dr. Bill Richards is one of the professionals involved in this psilocybin research happening at Johns Hopkins University.

So, in the space of ONE paragraph you ADMIT that NOWHERE in the academic research does your assertion about "professionals" "" consider these mystical states of consciousness evidence for the Perennial philosophy, and the divine or God is most understood within this particular context" appear. NOWHERE!

Nowhere in any papers or links that you have provided (despite your obfuscation and repeated lies) has the phrase: " consider these mystical states of consciousness evidence for the Perennial philosophy, and the divine or God is most understood within this particular context".appeared

YOU ADMIT YOU WERE LYING. Yet it took some two pages of fucking responses to get you to just grudgingly admit that the phrase you claimed ( that would help evidence your baseless claims for divinity) DOES NOT FUCKING EXIST except in your addled and febrile brain.

Then you try and muddle the waters with this crappy kind of justification:

I provided the link to the lecture where that's mentioned. The lectures are, indeed, based on what's been established at Johns Hopkins.

So fucking what? They do not back up your claim...more smokescreen you charlatan. It's "mentioned" are you fucking joking? You made a whole song and dance about this phrase and used it as a telling point in one of your arguments. you fucking muppet.

Then we have your final paragraph of bleating, more smoke and mirrors and wait for it...nothing.

Now we have comprehensively established your propensity for lying in defence of an idea that doesn't, like any theist claims for evidence for their chosen [fantasy] deity/divine/philosophy, hold any relationship to the truth.
We have established you not only have a propensity for lying and plagiarism you actually practice it, and when caught, deny, obfuscate and lie some more.

Your lies and fake woo can be dismissed.

You have been caught.

(Edit spelling and missing words)

Kafei's picture
Alright. Perhaps you're too

Alright. Perhaps you're still overlooking these things, because I spelled it out pretty clearly there. Those IMGUR links, once again, weren't simply "IMGUR links." They were screenshots of the very text I was redirecting your attention to in the very papers I cited. I linked to them directly, I gave specific directions where to find them, and you still claim you haven't come across 'em? If anyone's being dodgy and dishonest here, it's only yourself.

I'm going to give it another shot. I've cited two papers, and I'll link 'em once again below.

2017 Mystical Experience Chapter - <--- To make this easier for you, run a word search here for "perennial philosophy" or "common core" without the quotes, of course. You'll find the very excerpt which I screenshot in IMGUR.

Likewise, here's Dr. Bill Richards' paper, and if you search for the word "accordance," you'll once again find the excerpt I've screenshot. Those are simple enough directions, and if you still maintain you cannot find these things, that's on you. That's not my fault. These are simple enough directions, you shouldn't have any issue whatsoever.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Kafei

@ Kafei

More lies?
I said: Nowhere in any papers or links that you have provided (despite your obfuscation and repeated lies) has the phrase: " consider these mystical states of consciousness evidence for the Perennial philosophy, and the divine or God is most understood within this particular context".appeared"

And what do you come back with? More spurious references and links? Your IMGUR reference has already been fucking debunked as not matching your claimed quote, why search for more unlike phrases.?

Is it absolutely impossible for you to admit you pulled a quote out of you arse? That no professional ever wrote those words?

What the blue fuck is wrong with you?

I asked clearly for Publication, Chapter, Paragraph and Line where this spurious 'quote' of yours appeared , you cannot do it. You resort, like every other evidenceless. naked theist troll to lies and obfuscations.

There is no integrity or truth in you, that is obvious from your replies.

It would be simple enough, and I can guarantee every atheist I know on these pages would do it when their error is pointed out, to merely 'fess up to a misquote.
But you? No, you continue the lie, you point me to internet chat sites, youtube and woo publications that nowhere have the quote you claimed.
How much does it fucking take for you to admit you are wrong? Admit you lied? .
I know why you will not admit your calumny, because it was a quote upon which you based an entire argument for the validity of your fuckling nonsense.
In short YOU MADE IT UP as you admitted. It was not even a fucking 'paraphrase' you numpty, it was a downright fucking lie.

.

Kafei's picture
You're the only person here

You're the only person here that seems to think that I haven't provided what you asked for. You probably don't realize that, and that's why I noted that "Old man shouts" may not just be a clever name. I left very simple instruction, and yet it still somehow eluded you. I don't know what else to say. We're going to have to agree to disagree. I also reject your claims that I've lied in any fashion, this is simply you falling back to a defense mode because you failed to grasp the very simple things I've explained. That's my summation. If you're willing to have an open-minded discussion, and if you're willing to really examine what this scientific research is about, I will engage. However, if you're just going to continue to call me a liar without addressing the very simple instruction I left, then there's really no point to this.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Kafei

@ Kafei

Your arrogance is only exceeded by your mendacity.

I asked plainly and simply for you to provide where I can find the exact quote that you claimed in your post. The quote that propped up one of your dismally forgettable arguments. .
You have, through two pages of bullshit, obfuscation and avoidance signally failed to do so.

Then you claim (laughably) You're the only person here that seems to think that I haven't provided what you asked for.

I checked every link you provided and the passage you claim DOES NOT APPEAR.

As it appears you cannot produce :Publication, Chapter, Paragraph and line where this quote from your post appears consider these mystical states of consciousness evidence for the Perennial philosophy, and the divine or God is most understood within this particular context.

It is obvious you are either smacked out of your head right now, or fucking lying.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt then it is obvious you are fucking lying.

You backtracked by saying it was a paraphrase,( it isn't) but you have never said that before....

You backtrack again by telling us it is now a "summation" well it still fucking isn't. You are still fucking lying.

Clear now?

Nyarlathotep's picture
@Kafei

@Kafei

It seems you have posting material from rationalskepticism.org here. Listen, I should probably have my head examined, but I'll give you this one last chance: BEFORE you post anything else on this forum, you will remove EVERYTHING you have posted that is from another site/source.

Kafei's picture
Okay, I think I got rid of

Okay, I think I got rid of all of 'em. If you catch one I missed, I will make sure to delete it.

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