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Please link the peer reviewed work that evidences mysticism, and please do properly define what you mean by it.
Not YouTube videos, and the fact these claims have been given airtime on CNN establishes nothing. As I pointed out if mainstream science accepted mysticism as objectively evidenced it would be global news, it wouldn't be communicated via YouTube, or on internet forums, the idea is risible. Though it's a common enough tactic for theists making these outlandish claim on here.
Mysticism
noun
1. belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.
"St Theresa's writings were part of the tradition of Christian mysticism"
2. vague or ill-defined religious or spiritual belief, especially as associated with a belief in the occult.
As I said, how can something "inaccessible to the intellect" be validated by the scientific method would can only be accessed by the intellect? The claim makes no sense, and I'm not watching woo woo YouTube videos either.
Then why are you only linking YouTube videos? Just link the worthy peer reviewed scientific journals that published the work you claim evidenced mysticism.
@ Sheldon
Kafei has been asked that multiple times. He can't or won't because he knows the published papers do not bear out his assertions.
@ Kafei* DEFINE a mystical state of consciousness. How frigging hard is this. You said it is "concretely defined." We are still waiting. You should be able to do it in 10 words or less if it is that frigging "CONCRETE." Define it or admit that you have no idea at all what the hell you are talking about.
Here's a suggestion for your "10 words or less."
I skimmed that post you linked on that other site. I noticed you said Leibniz coined the term perennial philosophy. While I could care less who coined the term, that statement raises my skeptic alarm to a 9.
/e Again, don't really care about such things; but this kind of sloppiness is a red flag that you're dealing with a crackpot.
Kafei, I think you are struggling to convince yourself and others that taking hallucinogens or producing those states is acceptable and desirable because ‘god’. Ok, good for you. Go enjoy yourself. Please don’t drive a motor vehicle while you’re in your ‘spiritual’ state.
@Nyar
Never said Leibniz coined the term Perennial philosophy. He may have coined that specific terminology, but he certainly didn't originate the Perennial philosophy. It had been known prior to that as the Sophia Perennis from Latin, and holds roots in Neoplatonism. So, seems your comment backfired. You sloppily thought I had made that statement when I pointed out that I'd be quoting from Ken Wilber's "UP from Eden." I link to a free copy of it at the very bottom of the post.
@CyberLN
I never said ,"Hallucinogens are desirable, therefore God." Rather what I'm echoing is what these professionals are saying which is that mystical states of consciousness are the evidence for the Perennial philosophy, and "God" or any word for the divine is more accurately understood within this context. And I would never drive a death-dealing engine whist on a substance like a psychedelic.
@Shane Here's a better episode of The Atheist Experience on mystical experiences with Mitchell Diamond.
Kafei, you wrote, “I never said ,"Hallucinogens are desirable, therefore God." “
Where did I write that’s what you said? My post began with, “I think...”.
Please don’t put words into my mouth.
I was paraphrasing. Here's what you said, "Hallucinogens or producing those states is acceptable and desirable because ‘god’." That's definitely not what I'm saying, please don't put words in my mouth.
Oh, ffs, I told you what I THINK...I wonder if you consider my thoughts to be your words.
No, I just pointed out that your summation was completely irrelevant to what I've laid out here. That's all. What's the statement, "Hallucinogens or producing those states is acceptable and desirable because ‘god’" even supposed to mean, anyway?
Kafei: YOU HAVE LAID NOTHING OUT HERE. nothing!!! How can you not understand this. You have made one big woo woo assertion after another, never defined terms, justified one woo woo statement of bullshit with another woo woo statement of bullshit. How in the hell can you not see this. Still waiting for a "concrete" definition of mysticism, spiritual or any other woo woo word you want to use. Before you can begin having an intelligent conversation of any sort, you need to clearly define your terms. YOU HAVE NOT DONE SO. You just reference drug studies and woo woo bullshit.
I've referenced legitimate science, I've also linked to very elaborate posts where I have defined the terms I'm using, and absolutely nothing I've referenced has anything at all whatsoever to do with "woo-woo bullshit." What you've expressed is simply the cynical point-of-view that complete overlooks the facts about these topics.
No you haven't, despite being asked repeatedly to cite worthy peer reviewed publications that support your claims , all you have linked is YouTube videos.
@Kafei: You have not linked to anything "legitimate" that defined mysticism or spirituality. You are delusional. How frigging hard could it possibly be. If you think there is a concrete definition of either of these terms. SIMPLY WRITE DOWN WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Calling another person's point of view cynical when you have not clearly explained what in the hell you are talking about is asinine. DEFINE YOUR TERMS! Where is this "Concrete" definition you are referring to. Obviously it is not in any of the links you have posted or you would be able to simply WRITE IT DOWN.
I've explained the definition is quite elaborate, even in the lectures, if you're not taking the time to review the scientific research, then it's not necessarily my fault that you cannot recognize a definition. I've also linked to very elaborate posts in which the Perennial wisdom is elaborated upon as well. If you're genuinely interested, you'd review the research and the links. I'm really not going to take the time to re-type what is easily heard at the time-stamped points of these lectures. If you're not interested enough to review what the professionals involved in the research have to say themselves, then it's no wonder you think mysticism is bunk. You've never attempted to grasp it in the first place.
RE the Video: One biochemical model of the world works. One biochemical model of the world does not work and causes people to think they can fly off of buildings or walk in front of traffic. There is ordinary reality and calling it "unknowable" is fucking stupid. If reality is unknowable, stand on the top of a skyscraper and jump down to the sidewalk. The position that reality is unknowable is just moronic. We have an agreed upon reality that works. Questioning it does not change it. Pointing out our limits, does not change it. Taking psychedelic drugs does not change it. Pretending reality is different than it is, does not change it. There is nothing cynical about requiring facts and evidence for an assertion. Define MYSTICISM AND SPIRITUALITY. The interview is complete woo woo.
@Cognostic
I've done this. I've said mysticism is defined by what it involves, primarily engaging mystical states of consciousness, refining the various techniques to access mystical consciousness, and the integration of the insights of those experiences into the daily life of a mystic, that's mysticism in a nutshell. Now, spirituality is being defined synonymously with these mystical experiences. To be concerned with the spiritual, means to be concerned with these spiritual teachings and experiences as opposed to the material and physical things.
@Kafei: You are defining Woo Woo with Woo Woo. "Mysticism" (undefineid) is defined by "mystical states" (undefined) of consciousness, "refining various techniques" (undefined amorphous verbiage), integration of "insights" (undefined), "Mystic" (undefined) and that is mysticism in a nutshell. WTF? Do you actually think you said something?
Spiritualiy (undefined), is being defined synonymous with mysticism (undefined). "Mystical Experience" (undefined) To be concerned with spiritual, means to be concerned with these "spiritual teachings" (undefined). And you are using the word spiritual to define spiritual. How did you ever come to the idea that Spiritual and material or physical are opposite or opposed to each other? Can you provide any evidence at all for that assertion. Can you demonstrate that spiritual or mystical are not physical? You keep making one woo woo assertion after another and only back up your comments with more woo woo. Do you even know what a "fact" is? I am beginning to wonder.
All you have here is just one big "Fallacy of definition." "Definitions that fail to have merit because they are overly broad, use obscure or ambiguous language, or contain circular reasoning are called fallacies of definition."
In short you have absolutely nothing of value. Complete and utter woo woo. Please cite a "Concrete Definition." You made the assertion that there were "concrete definitions" for mysticism and spirituality. Either provide the definitions or admit that you are incorrect.
1. Mysticism involves mystical states. THIS IS NOT A DEFINITION IT IS A TAUTOLOGY.
tau·tol·o·gy the saying of the same thing twice in different words, generally considered to be a LOGICAL FALLACY.
Synonyms: : repetition, repetitiveness, repetitiousness, reiteration, redundancy, superfluity, periphrasis, iteration, duplication; ....
Mysticism = mystical consciousness = mystical states = life of a mystic = spirituality which is synchronously (NOT DEFINED).
Defining one amorphous concept with another is also a FALLACY. A FALLACY OF DEFINITION. "Definitions that fail to have merit because they are overly broad, use obscure or ambiguous language, or contain circular reasoning are called fallacies of definition."
Spirituality: to be concerned with spiritual.
HOW MANY TIMES MUST YOU BE ASKED TO Define MYSTICISM AND SPIRITUALITY. You asserted you had "concrete" definitions. WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Until you define your concepts the only people responding to you are those who like you assume they know what the fuck all the woo woo is you are talking about. WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
And Kafel wins the Fred Astaire Award for dancing around without ever touching down to reality.
Kafel, why is it that when someone asks you for a teaspoon of sugar, you shovel in piles of manure? Is it because you know one cannot support spiritualism, or that it's your nature to be so evasive?
@Kafei: "definition is quite elaborate" And it either holds up against critical inquiry or it does not. So what is it? We are still waiting. It is your fault that you have not yet given an operational definition of the bullshit you are spouting. It is not my job to go looking for definition for the crap coming out of your keyboard. Provide a definition or admit that you have no idea at all what in the hell you are talking about.
Perennial wisdom" Not a definition - an inane assertion. Eternal Wisdom? WTF???
Perhaps you are not providing a definition for no other reason than you have no idea at all as to what the fuck you are talking about.
Do you not understand the videos you are referencing?
@Cognostic
I have provided definitions for you.
Well, read up on it. I mean, it sounds like you're just being introduced to this stuff. I've been following the research for about a decade, and I study comparative religion as a hobby. I don't know what you think you're going to find, none of this is going to be boiled down to some bumper sticker definition. Your understanding is going to require some patience, some studying, and some research.
@Cognostic
No, I'd say you're misinterpreting this as "woo-woo." Mysticism, which I have defined, but to address again simply, is defined by the individual, and the individual's engagement with spiritual disciplines and techniques such as meditation or asceticism aimed at eliciting very concretely and specifically defined transformation of consciousness which neuroscientists are calling a "complete" mystical experience.
Once again, this is merely your own misconceptions and misconstruing. That's all.
Like I said, I think you're just being introduced to this research. Y'ever tried searching "mystical experience" in Google scholar?
I've left links that elaborately define this stuff. Have you looked through them at all? It doesn't seem like it, because you're still quite confused about these topics.
This question reminds me of Einstein's search for hidden variables that would explain that quantum mechanics is not all about chance. He did not succeed. (It is enough that he discovered special and general relativity. You can't solve every problem even if you are Einstein!)
Bell came along and came up with a test of hidden variable theories, called Bell's inequality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem
Many physicists have done the experiments, and they all come up with the result that hidden variable theories cannot be true.
What does this mean regarding God? I'm not sure. But Einstein insisted that God cannot play dice. In fact, if God exists, he does play dice. Chance is built into the universe. Think evolution.
@Kafei: I can not misinterpret something that has not been defined in the first place. There are no misconceptions when your concepts are not clear. "Elaborately Defined" You are either joking or just trolling. You have defined absolutely nothing. Either give a clear and accurate operational definition of "Mystical" and another for "Spiritual" or admit you are trolling and full of shit.
@Cognostic
However, you can if you overlook the definitions as you've done thus far.
The lectures I've presented, the excerpts, etc. that aim to define these things have been quite clear.
Well, I've explained this to you in several different ways. I'll try again, but if it goes over your head or you cannot fathom it, then go ahead and consider me anything you'd like, because that's just an intellectual defense mechanism on your behalf. Is it really my fault that you cannot grasp what this scientific research entails, how God is viewed from the Perennialist standpoint, etc.? In a nutshell, once again, mystics have claimed an experience with the so-called "Absolute" which has many names throughout history and culture. Mystics have recognized this absolute by direct experience, by this very phenomenon in consciousness the researchers are calling a "complete" mystical experience. The Absolute is a sense of the Totality of nature, not all things right here and now, but all things that ever have been and ever will be; for the mystic all time collapses into a single moment, and the Totality or the Absolute is directly experience, the mystic temporarily dissolves into the Absolute, and returns from that experience spiritually reborn when they come back to an ordinary state of consciousness. That video I linked there of Leo is a two part series, and if any of this is confusing for you, I recommend both parts. Otherwise, if you're just skimming through here, not reading the posts I link, ignoring the lectures, etc. Then, there's a good chance you're going to have a great difficulty grasping this stuff.
WHAT DEFINITIONS! - YOU HAVE DEFINED NOTHING. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THE WORD DEFINITION MEANS?
1. a statement of the exact meaning of a word, especially in a dictionary. The act of defining, or of making something definite, distinct, or clear.
You have done no such thing. You pile woo woo on top of woo woo and pretend you are talking about something real. Utter Utter Bullshit.
@ Cog
He is doing the theist Humpty Dumpty...you know the one: “When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”
Fact is Kaffei's obtuse and verbose 'definitions' are not definitions at all...mystic and mysticism is already adequately defined in English dictionaries.
He just chooses to ignore any rational discussion in favour of his "all thingy god word means what I want it to" and "lots of people say so too...especially when they are high as fuck on mushrooms"...sheesh. I'm done.
We KNOW chemical reactions in the brain cause hallucinations, no amount of anecdotal witnessing will change that fact. So whoopy de doo...get high, have trip, come down...yep. Cool. Evidence of what now? That's all Kaffei can argue. It doesn't matter how many studies or Spinozas argue about it, there is not one shred of actual evidence for the all encompassing god thingy from these studies.
Mystics and mysticism are a thing...so are mysteries. And they are clearly defined in Websters, Oxford English and every other dictionary. They bear no relation to Kaffei's addled maundering.
I did mention these psychedelics only mimic what can happen naturally if you engaged in a discipline like meditation or asceticism and the mystical experience is also speculated to occur in near-death. They've been well defined despite the opinions expressed here. I left more than enough material for anyone to satisfy themselves with how it's used in the research. Even Matt Dillahunty admitted he was unfamiliar with William James' definition of mystical experience which is the very basis of how this term has been defined and refined throughout decades of established scientific research. So, if you're looking in a dictionary, the dictionary hasn't caught up with the science. Look to how it's defined in the research. Matt asked me to call again, and he'd look into it and perhaps we can discuss his new understanding of the term.
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