Why can we not observe God?

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In Spirit's picture


Curiousity makes me ask. What are the rules regarding posting sites and sources? I see it happen all the time.

Signed...... student wanting to learn

Nyarlathotep's picture
@In Spirit

@In Spirit
It's simple: don't post copyrighted material, don't post other people's work as your own. Instead, just post a link to such material.

noreason's picture
I kind of agree. The answer

@kafei I kind of agree. The answer is probably somewhere between my-god-only and deny-everything.

Do you have any any ideas that we can compare side by side?

Kafei's picture
Well, some of the views I've

@noreason Well, some of the views I've mentioned was the Perennial philosophy, which is briefly addressed in the link there. I've also heavily elaborated at the freethoughtsblog for The Atheist Experience, and I so I would highly recommend my post to Einy @#173. I'm Kafei there as well. I've also done some podcasts with a friend of mine who goes by Max Freakout, and we just finished a third episode, but he hasn't posted it yet on his channel. I've also been on atheist streams as a lone theist attempting to elucidate what this research is about such as Athena's stream and Atheist Edge and Steve McRae's channel (he identifies as a temporal agnostic).

David Killens's picture


And I can reference Groucho Marx, but that does not add to the conversation, either.

noreason's picture
@kafei i watched your pod

@kafei i watched your pod cast and read the stuff. I get it. I guess for you and I we can dismiss the religious god and the praising type stuff. That kind of stuff is just not needed.

what is the simplest notion we can speak to that is empirical and will still include some of the properties that you think this tweener god may have?

I guess maybe a brief discussion on how do we define objects? what are some broad classifications we use to describe objects? and can we apply those notions to a descriptor that offers an explanation, mechanism, and makes a prediction?

anybody with brain knows any claim that offers a mechanism, explanation, make predictions, and is repeatable is more valid than those that don't.

toto974's picture


Look at this link, that you surely know:


It literally presupposes the existence of divine forces.

Kafei's picture
This research has nothing at

This research has nothing at all to do with presuppositionalism. Rather it's a recognition that has taken place.

toto974's picture
You did not understand me

You did not understand me Kafei, i wasn't talking about this particular school of christian apologetics. I am just saying that in they mind they are like: "God, or whatever, exists, and i am going to use that as an evidence". They work backward.

So the guy in the video with long hairs was saying..?

Kafei's picture
These aren't Christian

These aren't Christian apologists. You're completely mischaracterizing the research. They also aren't presupposing anything. The "complete" mystical experience rather involves a priori criteria used to gauge such experiences. The guy with the long hair is Alex Grey whose comments directed at the panel of professionals who agree with what he said.

toto974's picture
I never said they were

I never said they were christian apologists, can you not read? You were thinking that I was telling that.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Kafei - Okay, I think I got

Kafei - Okay, I think I got rid of all of 'em. If you catch one I missed, I will make sure to delete it.

It only took me a few seconds to find a post that you copied from another site. You have not completed this task. Tonight (in like 8 hours), hopefully I'll have the time to do some more checking on your progress. I strongly recommend you complete this task before then.

Kafei's picture
What's wrong with the post? I

What's wrong with the post? I only see youtube links. Why can't we link to RationalSkepticism? Do the atheists here not get along with the atheists there or something? What on that post you linked did you want deleted?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Kafei - Why can't we link to

Kafei - Why can't we link to RationalSkepticism?

Strawman; no one told you that, or even hinted/suggested it. In fact, if you had done that, we wouldn't be having this problem. In short, this statement of yours seems to be a distraction.

Kafei - What's wrong with the post?...What on that post you linked did you want deleted?

I already told you:

Nyarlathotep - It seems you have posting material from rationalskepticism.org here. Listen, I should probably have my head examined, but I'll give you this one last chance: BEFORE you post anything else on this forum, you will remove EVERYTHING you have posted that is from another site.

Ironically; I've given you one last chance, more than once. Shame on me. I'm too busy to ban you right now, so you'll be getting a third "last" chance. Don't squander it.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Unfortunately Kafei is going

Unfortunately Kafei is going to have to leave us, since despite numerous warning and opportunities (far more than most get), they seem unwilling (or perhaps unable?) to abide by the rules. It appears AR is just going to be another notch on their belt; another site---in a long list---they have abused and been banned from.

noreason's picture
@ Kafei, you are in a

@ Kafei, you are in a quagmire. There is no doubt that brain state can be duplicated in some different ways. Thats easy stuff.

link your stuff back to the standard model and forget this line of logic. This line, at best, is a convergent piece. I wouldn't really even use it past running out of things to talk about at a party. But if I were to use this I would approach from the fact that its like when drugs enhance muscle function. They don't change the function they just enhance the function. The brain is basically processing inputs. Does the enhancements effect this like a drug does muscles.

Ok, that's easy. So we have to look at what we are and where these input(s) comes from? enter QED, gravity waves, and the like.

Your god is an illusion. I am even positive that Richard Dawkins would change his title to God Illusion after a brief conversation.

Kafei's picture
I take it you've never had an

@noreason I take it you've never had an experience like this. What these professionals are saying is that their volunteers are endorsing that this experience is "more real than everyday waking consciousness." That it is more convincingly real than reality as you know it in your ordinary state of consciousness. Dr. Roland Griffiths says this of his volunteers in what he describes as William James' "noetic quality" of the mystical experience. Dr. Rick Strassman also reported that this was universally consistent with his volunteers. It's no surprise to me, then, that The Atheist Experience is constantly receiving calls from people who've done DMT, and have had this happen to them like David from California or Nathan from Florida. I believe until Matt Dillahunty does DMT for himself, he's going to continue to be discombobulated by these DMT callers.

David Killens's picture


So what? Just because someone took enough drugs to believe what they hallucinated was real, all that indicates is that they got really fucked up. Being fucked up is not proof of a god or gods.

ferguson1951's picture
Ignorant! You cannot observe

Ignorant! You cannot observe God because you are simply an arrogant CREATURE worth simply a bunch of cells that die easily of diseases and accidents, you are too vulnerable, anything can affect you, You are not - as you belive - the masters of the Universe, you are not God, you are not an angel, you are not even the type to whom God chooses to reveal Himself as He wishes. You are simply, like all of us, a fallible nothing ranting about things you do not know well enough, that's all. If you at least had learnt something from Socrates!!!

Tin-Man's picture
@Fig... (Aw, dammit)... I

@Fig... (Aw, dammit)... I mean Fergie Re: Rant starting with, "Ignorant! You cannot observe God because you are simply an arrogant CREATURE worth simply a bunch of cells ..."

ROFLMFAO... Aw, shit! Not again!... *looking toward crotch*... That's it! Twice you've made me piss myself laughing! Definitely gonna have to start wearing adult diapers when reading your posts from now on.... *attempting to catch breath*... Phew! After all that time you were gone, it appears some things never change... *chuckle*... *shaking head in amusement*...

Adrian's picture
Didn't Socrates say "I know

Didn't Socrates say "I know that I know nothing."? If you know that you know more than most people who pretend to know otherwise.


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