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@ Kafei
Yes, I know, I have said that in my previous posts. Non drug induced mental phenomena are well documented. As I explained I have experienced them (after much practise myself). The fact remains it is NOT evidence of your woolly god thing that you are unable to define.
You have attempted to railroad an idea through without any evidence save personal anecdotal drug induced recollections. That is all you have. It is unmitigated bollocks to make claims based on that..
New definitions are not needed as they only obfuscate the reality and confuse the issue completely. It is a tried and true method to bypass actual evidence and reason. A favourite tool of charlatans, and those unable to provide actual evidence for their claims.
There are a couple of thousand years of personal anecdotal stories of those practising deep meditation and physical practice of many arts. The ingestion of psychedelic drugs are not needed to conduct this research. Deep meditation coupled with physical exercise can and does produce chemical changes to the brain. This is well proven and not on the edges of woo. Training of the mind and the body produces some amazing results.
Maybe you should try that route, it requires real mental effort and less making up of verbose contradictory nonsense. It also requires discipline and some rigorous exercise.
Come back when you have done it for a few years...like twenty or thirty, and have just learned how to learn.
Shortcuts are for tyros and frauds.
@Old man shouts
Well, if you've had experience of such, then all this shouldn't be ill-defined or vague to you. Unless you merely practice such disciplines, but never have engaged a mystical experience from them. Monks in temples will practice these disciplines for 30 years in some cases before they finally have a mystical experience, I'd wager some never receive it, and perhaps they finally encounter it prior to the moment of death since it's speculated to occur in the near-death experience.
I've said the term "God" is understood within the context of this research via the Perennial philosophy. If you don't think I've defined it, that's simply because you've never read up on Perennialism, that doesn't necessarily mean that "I can't define it." The definition is there, if you actually take the time to study it.
Well, there's the exegetical work of Dr. Ralph Hood which has found that the psilocybin-induced experiences at Johns Hopkins are virtually identical to those naturally occurring mystical experiences reported by mystics throughout the ages. I don't know how many times I've repeated that.
I wouldn't necessarily say a "mystical experience" is a "new definition." It was originally laid down by William James in the early 1900s and has been refined since over decades of scientific research. It has existed in the literature prior to William James' work in the work of Richard M. Bucke as "Cosmic consciousness" which is a term that Alan Watts used as well.
Sure, and they have done that with Tibetan monks who do not use drugs and engage this experience naturally, likewise the Carmelite nuns were also studied for their natural propensity to enter into these states. Here's the issue, the naturally occurring mystical experience via meditation and contemplative techniques are not very reliable. The rate at which a nun or monk might achieve it is erratic and spontaneous, so this fact sort of makes it cumbersome for the researchers which is why psychedelics became popular. Psychedelics don't depend on the rigorous mastery of one's advancement into meditation, instead they can produce this experience on-demand whether a person is familiar with meditation or not. They can reliably reproduce the state in which the Tibetan monk enters without psychedelics. That's why the study of mystical experience shifted to psychedelics, because they produce these experiences far more facilely.
I meditate everyday, and psychedelics is rather an annual practice of mine. I only do 'em once a year, but I meditate for the rest of the year.
I've actually been at it for about that long.
I wouldn't necessarily call it a short cut, I don't think that's the proper analogy, and I believe Michael Pollan says something quite similar to what I've said in Athena's stream. In one sense, it can certainly seem that way, but that doesn't make the experience any easier to withstand.
@ Kafei
I will only quote one part of this overlong and risible post
Really? Why are you wasting our time? We agree that there is a long tradition of meditation and exercise proven techniques that can enhance performance. We agree that they can also cause behavioural changes and personal (note personal) hallucinations and visions including, but not exclusively those that you describe.
We know that various natural and artificial chemicals can also cause similar changes to the brain chemistry causing much the same illusions.
What the fuck is your point?
None of it is evidence for a god/deity/absoluteness, specifically not for anything you have touted.
It is only evidence of what I have explained above.
The rest of it is conclusion based on false definitions and a mound of word salad, coupled with a lot of wishful thinking.
Please don't "but the research"...because the research Does NOT bear out your conclusions.
The facts are that all the experiences, drug induced or by more natural means are intensely personal, and as such, even though they may have similarities for a variety of unknown and sometimes obvious reasons...personal internal revelation is NOT acceptable evidence for your claims.
Personal internal hallucinations especially when drug induced with "heroic" (read dangerous) doses are just not reliable for any purpose except studying the effect of the drug.
Subsequent changes (witnessed or not) to the participants behaviour is only evidence of the effect of the drug. It is NOT evidence for the god/deity/absolute or even a fucking Rainbow Farting Unicorn Called Eric Who Lives in my Garage.
The research you quote fails to address several holes in the theory that YOU offer and has many areas where statistical error is apparent.
I am glad you meditate, that you take drugs to enhance your process of internal growth is, in my view, redundant and likely to, as it has, lead you into error.
Meditate on that.
Edit: missing words
@psychedelics only mimic what can happen naturally
HEY FINALLY YOU SAID SOMETHING THAT IS ACTUALLY INTERESTING. This is true as far as what I understand.... How is it Mystical or Supernatural? ITS NOT! An oxygen deprived brain in a near death reaction is not MYSTICAL. It is a biological reaction to being oxygen starved. NOTHING "MYSTICAL" HAS BEEN DEFINED. "Mystical" literally means "I have no idea." You have said NOTHING AT ALL about how the term Mystical is used in research.,... Please give us the CONCRETE definition you spoke of. How many times must you be asked. All you do is assert woo woo.
"In these lectures, James attempts to define mystical states of consciousness as "real" experiences, that is to say a valid topic of investigation and study, and to show them as available to most people. He begins with the crucial point of definition; without a clear idea of what is being discussed, misunderstandings are bound to occur. Many things can be referred to as mystical, but James uses the term "mystical states of consciousness" to encompass a spectrum of experiences, from the non-religious to the most religiously profound. " THIS IS NOT A DEFINITION!!!! WHY IS THAT NOT OBVIOUS TO YOU?
"Due to its subjective nature, the experience is much like state of feeling. James asserts that these two qualities (noetic AND Ineffable "entitle any state to be called mystical." ANY STATE NOTHING MYSTICAL OR SPIRITUAL HERE!!!
http://theg6group.com/james.html
There is nothing in any of this that gives a CONCRETE definition of Mysticism or Spirituality. NOTHING!
@Old man shouts ... Yep! It's obvious to me, obvious to you, obvious to anyone reading the posts. He has done nothing at all to actually define his terms and yet continues posting woo woo bullshit. I have an office mate who has a degree in anthropology and believes a lot of the same BS but takes a much more realistic approach. He studies drug interactions on consciousness and asserts many developments in conscious for the human species were due to the use of hallucinogens. (A much more tenable position than asserting it had something to do with spirituality or mysticism.) There is even evidence many of the early Christian faiths used hallucinogens. He too, likes to talk a lot about the role of mysticism and spirituality in the human species; however, psychologically these are not different from "peak experiences" and have no "mystical" meaning other than the fact they are self reported as mystical or spiritual (amorphous concepts directing us towards an internal state of some sort of significant meaning). This is also the tract that Sam Harris is taking. He appears to believe there is something about human consciousness that allows us to have these experiences, whatever they are, and science should begin exploring them. No that appears to be a valid position. How would any reputable scientist begin doing that? BY CLEARLY DEFINING HIS TERMS AND THE PARAMETERS OF HIS OR HER RESEARCH. Nothing our friend has posted has come close to that.
@Kafei
What is the end goal of mysticism? What are followers of it striving for? Some form of inner peace and greater understanding of their place in the universe?
Why should people be interested in mysticism? Is there a benefit they get? Why are mystics interested in teaching others, even skeptics like where you will most certainly find here?
I fully admit I do not know much about this, I don't think I am very interested in joining in on this (seen no reason to so far,) but I am curious how these people think and what their motivations are just to further my own knowledge and curiosity and learning of others and how they operate.
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@LogicFTW
I don't think there's necessarily an "end goal" of mysticism. I believe the insight as mystics have often recognized is to enjoy the moment, yes, in peace, in greater understanding, etc., but the point is to dance while the music is being played.
There's myriads of benefits, and I believe that they're even showing this to be true of the studies at Johns Hopkins, there's a quantum shift in individual's personalities. People become more patient, more empathetic, more open-minded, etc. They've shown that the terminally-ill cancer patients completely overcome their fear of death. We're not talking about a diminished fear, but the complete disappearance of fear so that these terminally-ill cancer patients can actually enjoy whatever time they have left. Tobacco addicts are able to quit their addiction without recidivism, and it also holds promise for Alzheimer's disease, dementia because these experiences also cause neurogenesis. It's even been shown beneficial in healthy volunteers.
Not all mystics are like that, but if you had an experience of enlightenment, you may want to share it with the world. You'd feel compelled to share it. I believe that's why the founders of the major religions became the founders of the major religions, because once they had a mystical experience, this is what ultimate led each one of these men to alas become the founder of a religion.
If you don't follow the science relative to these topics, then there's a good chance you probably won't know much about this. I mean, one thing I'd like to make absolutely clear is none of this is about "woo-woo bullshit" or "pseudo-science." If it was about any of that, I assure you, I would have abandoned my own research into all of this a very long time ago.
@Kafei
Thanks for take the time to answer my questions.
I am a strong believer of "being in the present" but don't think anything special is needed to do that. Just be in the present by not dwelling on the past or unnecessarily worrying about the future. Fortunately you answered what I was really asking in your next paragraph.
Those are some mighty claims will have to look into the research on that and see how much it exceeds the placebo/suggestion effect. If any of these are even partially true, definitely an area worth further study/testing.
Compelled? By what? Yourself? A compulsion perhaps to share what someone has learned to perhaps validate what they have learned, but also perhaps more altruistic: "this has helped me, and I hope by sharing it, it can also help you." Or likely some combination of many reasons.
I will have to say: compared to organized religion and the major god concepts practiced in the past and today, this definitely seems better, if anything because I do not see how anyone other then possibly personal validation "benefits" from sharing/discussing this. No money is collected, no power given etc. that I know of. Where all the major religions are highly suspect right off the bat simply because of the wealth/power concentration that happens at the top. But! me saying it is better than religion is a very low bar to clear as I consider religion these days to be a scourge on humanity that holds us as a race back from greater things.
You mentioned in a different post on this thread you have spent at least 20 years studying/practicing this. That is a huge commitment of time. Ever worry about confirmation bias? Especially when humans in general do not like to abandon ideas/practices they spent enormous time on? When I first started discussing and spending time thinking about god/lack of in a serious manner, I spent a fair amount of time questioning if I was falling into a sort of self confirmation bias loop that I see so many others do, and I have even done my self in things like highly sensitive political issues. Or perhaps more obviously on the growing divide between liberal and conservative in the US. I struggled with that for a while but with help of people on this site and few others plus my own reading and thought processes I realized the only way to sort this stuff is with careful study of the facts where available. Start with the facts and careful study and things actually quite often simplify rather than get complex on what is the "correct" (reality,) answer.
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LogicFTW: Mysticism is not a dogma... it has no goal. Religions have goals. Mystical thinking is woo woo.
"Why should people be interested in mysticism?" Get away from the term "mysticism." Example: There are many books written about OBE (Out of Body Experiences). This is something I taught myself to do when I was a teen and heavy into Martial Arts and meditation. NOTHING MYSTICAL ABOUT IT. - though I though there might be at the time. The last time I did this was about a week ago.
There are three primary occurrences in the OBE. (This is how I make sense of it.) 1. Sleep paralysis. 2. Phantom Limb Syndrome and 3) keeping the brain conscious during sleep paralysis.
Sleep paralysis is a temporary inability to move or speak that occurs when you're waking up or falling asleep. This occurs because your body turns off motor functions when you sleep. If it did not do this, you would dream of running and end up waking up miles away from your home. There is a disconnect between the brain and the body during sleep. If you maintain, keep alert, your conscious mind, and allow yourself to fall into sleep paralysis (allow the separation to occur) a phantom body is created by a stimulation starved brain.
The phantom body is no different than a phantom limb. A phantom limb is the sensation that an amputated or missing limb is still attached. People who end up missing a limb will actually continue feeling pain in their missing hand or find themselves reaching for something with a limb that is not there. The first time I really experienced this was when I was in the hospital for knee surgery.
I was given a spinal and my body was numbed from the waist down. At the end of the surgery a screen was removed that blocked my view from the actual surgery site. The doctor had my right leg up on his shoulder and was wrapping my knee with gauze. The leg he had on his shoulder was not mine. My leg was on the operating table directly down in front of me. I knew it was there because that is where I felt it. My brain would not accept the fact that the leg on the doctor's shoulder was mine. My leg was where my brain last saw it. For about 10 minutes as my leg was being wrapped, my brain insisted it was not my leg and that my leg was on the table in front of me. This is exactly the experience of an OBE. My body is not the one laying on the floor (always on the floor, the bed is too soft and results in sleep.) but the one standing.
I have done this my entire life and there is nothing at all mystical about it. NOTHING. It is a state of consciousness. It is not magical. It is not spiritual. It is something anyone can do with just a little training. It is my own mind chewing bubble gum and nothing more.
The term "mystical" only means "we don't know." The same definition applies to "spiritual." That is why our friend is completely unable to define the terms. He has no idea at all how to operationalize them. THERE IS NOTHING "CONCRETE" ABOUT MYSTICISM OR SPIRITUALITY. NOTHING!
@ Cog
Exactly. As I was trying to get through to Kafei when you meditate and go into deep meditation coupled with exercise (like I did with Kendo) I was fortunate on a couple of occasions to reach the state of "no mind'. That is only possible after years of training where my body, without conscious volition reacted to my opponent, even before he had signalled intent.
I could have described that as a "no time event" which, to me, inside my head it was. I 'saw' every move before my opponent made it. I saw the consequence of my blow before he felt them....
But here's the rub, ANYONE can do it with training!
Like Cog's OBE I was a timeless observer of myself, my brain insisting it was a mere passenger in a body that was fighting hard, but seemed to to my brain to be in slow motion.
ANYONE Can be trained to do it. Sure it requires discipline, training and inner fortitude, something you do not get from 'heroic' (aka stupid) doses of drugs.
Yes I have an 'experience' where I felt that I was on the edge of a great understanding, but that is a result of deep meditation, it is NOT proof of the undefined god/deity/oneness 'mystic' shite Kafei dribbles.
@Old man shouts ... Fighting is just so damn interesting as a "state of consciousness. It's one of the reasons I loved doing it and continue to stretch and try even though I am older now. Getting over that butterfly in the stomach and knee knocking reaction was amazing. Discovering that getting hit and not consciously being their to receive the pain was possible and is one of the weirdest experiences associated with fighting. Pulling a nose hair is more painful than getting punched square in the face. And if you get knocked out... well you still never feel the punch or kick. That's weird but so true. When the "assessment" of the opponent leaves, all plans for techniques vanish, and you abandon yourself to pure action and response, amazing things begin to happen. Nothing mystical. Nothing Spiritual. Just human. I think a whole lot of human experience is labeled spiritual or mystical for no other reason than people do not understand it and do not practice it. I got into the OBE stuff by studying dream cultures. I had been doing it for years before I read my first book on it. I could not believe the bullshit being put out there by the mystics and spiritualists. Complete horseshit. Much like the assholes that knock people down with their "chi" / "Ki". Phony mystical bullshit is rampant in Martial arts.
One of my all time favorite videos.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGtUytD3Vx4
Here is another fucking dipshit woo woo artist...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0_n7tGnK0
@ Cog
Yeh I love those guys. Some Dojo's are just full of shite. Fraudsters and woo merchants.
Yep when I was fighting the butterflies and sometimes stink of my own fear filled my nostrils but years of practice in calming and I could recite my own version of the Bene Gesserit Litany against Fear...and it worked...for me....
My Kyudo practice helped in that,all style and little function but you had to be in a 'no mind' state to really make it work. I could never get in the proper frame to do it on horseback with the shorter bow but I admired those who could....
But, as you know it has to be accompanied by persistent training to come off in a competition/combat situation. That is why I have no fucking time for woo merchants. Half assed, get it backwards fuckers who cannot string an intelligible brief sentence together whilst jabbering about fucking 'mystic' concepts FFS.
It is NOT fucking mystical, it is hard work, discipline and, in the end, entering a state of heightened mental awareness. Nothing to do with gods, woo or mystics. Shit, man has been doing it for thousands of years. It is nothing unusual. As I said ANYONE can do it.
Proof of the divine it aint.
@Cognostic
That trips me up, why would people do something that has no goal? I actually think people don't, that they do have a goal, even if they do not recognize what it is. Even if the goal is to "enjoy" the journey/learning experience, that in itself is a goal of sorts to me.
I actually suggested that to Kafei. To me if it was rephrased to: exploring the capabilities of the mind through meditation etc. to learn more about oneself. It would be met with less skepticism, especially by atheist, (that tend to be skeptical.)
I learned some new things today about OBE, thank you for sharing that... Not only in this post but in the subsequent conversation that followed your post.
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@LogicFTW: It can't have a goal when it doesn't even have a definition. There is nothing called "mysticism." The same is true of the word "Spiritual." There is no action a person can take that is called mysticism. There is no action a person can take that is called spiritual. It's all woo woo nonsense. If you think there is something called mysticism you should be able to find a clear definition of it. "Good Luck With That."
RE: "During an out-of-body experience (OBE), the experient seems to be awake and to see his body and the world from a location outside the physical body. A closely related experience is autoscopy (AS), which is characterized by the experience of seeing one's body in extrapersonal space. Yet, despite great public interest and many case studies, systematic neurological studies of OBE and AS are extremely rare and, to date, no testable neuro-scientific theory exists." (THIS IS ACTUALLY ABOUT AS GOOD AS ANY DEFINITION GETS. ) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14662516
@LogicFTW
Yes, this is only the tip of the iceberg in regards to the science that's been done.
No, I think you may have misconstrued what I said. I said when a person has this "complete" mystical experience, they often are compelled to share it. I've read some of the descriptions of how people have been attempting to relate to this experience, but it's definitely not what I'm talking about.
Some atheists like Matt Dillahunty would rather see religion end, others believe it can evolve, and so I see the latter far more feasible than the former.
No, not at all, because once you have an understanding of what false spiritual knowledge is, you can never be led astray.
Oh, sure, it's very easy for an atheist to fall into a self-reaffirming biased loop, I see it happen a lot. People identify with the word atheism, and then it becomes part of every facet of their life, and they become so emotionally-attached to the title, that they will ignore evidence to defend it.
Well, that's all I present here. The facts, the science that's been done.
You can not live in the present and believe in Woo Woo at the same time. It's not possible. You would have to be in a state of WooWoo and if you were you would not be on this site. You are incapable of letting go of the bullshit that has attached itself to your brain and seeing what is going on in front of your nose. If you are in the present, show me the woo woo you are talking about.
@Old man shouts
It sounds more like you're explaining what Jamie Wheal calls STER in the "Flow state," which is definitely not what I'm describing as the "complete" mystical experience induced by psychedelics. You wouldn't even be able to perform martial arts in this state because hanging on to the ground will be the major program to be executed.
It's considered a mystical experience insofar as it's been defined within the context that William James originally laid out. If you're defining the experience outside of that, you're simply not referring to James' definition which is the definition that originated this research.
Well, according to the professionals, it's evidence of the Perennial philosophy, and the divine is more properly understood within this context.
Re: Kafei - "You wouldn't even be able to perform martial arts in this state because hanging on to the ground will be the major program to be executed."
Ah-hah! THAT explains it! Now I know one of my cats has been having mystical and spiritual experiences! Ya see, every time my wife puts catnip out as a treat, one of our cats (Zeus) takes a few bites and then - SHA-ZAM! - he flattens out on his belly, puts both paws outstretched and slightly to the sides, furiously tries to grip the tile floor, and then starts mewing with a wild-eyed look as if saying, "HELP! Somebody! Anybody! Help! I'm about to fall off the Earth!" By golly, my little kitty is a fucking Zen MASTER! Who knew? Awesome!... *celebratory fist pump*...
@ Kafei
Then you aint been reading what Cog and I have been writing. As a student of zen for more than 30 years I am well aware of the 'void", the state of "no mind" and I described them lucidly and clearly in the context of combat or, note, in the context of training mind and body.
It seems you are so wrapped up in this drug induced state of consciousness malarkey that you cannot see that it is not necessary to over indulge in any chemicals to have a "Complete Mystical Experience" ( which is a meaningless phrase) or, enter the "void" as it is more properly experienced. It is a function of training and deep meditation that causes chemical changes to the brain, causing an altered cognitive experience. Yes, it is a profound state but it is evidence of nothing except the power of your own mind.
It is not 'proof' of anything except that, it is especially not evidence of Huxley's famously drug addled statements.
I know you want to have some sort of universal meaning of life, but there just isn't one unless you make it yourself. Self knowledge being the first goal of mediation.
In all your postings there is not one skerrick that indicates any self awareness on your part, rather a mad rush to regurgitate these studies as proof of concept. Which we have all explained they are not.
We have defined "mystic " and "mysticism" for you as used in the english language but you want to redefine a perfectly good word so it agrees with your solipsism.
If you need to redefine a word, it normally means your concept is wrong to start with, or you are incapable of explaining it.
@Kafei: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA LMAO - We just made the transition from "mystical experience to "complete mystical experience." Anyone else smelling a 'NO TRUE SCOTSMAN FALLACY.'
HEY KAFIE: You have not even defined mystical experience yet and now you are moving forward to a "complete mystical experience?" How about some clarification. WTF are you talking about? A definition might be nice. One that is not laced with fallacious circularity.
@Tin-Man
Well, catnip might get the kitten to engage in playful activity, but for the jaguar that eats yage, they no longer roam around in kittenish playfulness. I have to make this distinction, because people have been confusing what I'm talking about with other types of altered states that are irrelevant to what I'm trying to emphasize here. I recommend this piece by Alan Watts. I may have posted it before, but just in case you didn't catch it.
@Kafei Re: "Well, catnip might get the kitten to engage in playful activity, but for the jaguar that eats yage, they no longer roam around in kittenish playfulness."
...*heavy sad sigh*... Oh, well. So much for my attempt at humor. Guess I must be losing my touch. My life is now worthless.... *anguished cry*... Goodbye, cruel world!... *sawing at underside of wrist with dull butterknife*...
Tin-Man
Do you need an oil can?
@Kafei Re: "Do you need an oil can?"
...*still sawing furiously on wrist*... Hell no, I don't need an oil can!... *saw-saw-saw-saw-saw*.... I need a HUG!... *saw-saw-saw-saw-saw*... And maybe a hack saw!... *saw-saw-saw-saw-saw*.... I've been at this ALL DAY, and this damn butterknife hasn't even made so much as a scratch yet... *saw-saw-saw-saw-saw*....
@Kafei: The Psychedelic Experience (What does he say>) Western people don't accept spiritual experiences induced by drugs. (no definition of spiritual)
Different drugs have different effects.....
He tried a lot of drugs to find the "mystical experience" Not defined or distinguished from a state of being drugged. Calling it mystical does not change the fact that it is a state of being drugged. (And I have used most of the same drugs. And I once believed in the mystical shit. And then I grew the fuck up.)
MYSTICAL EXPERIENCE FINALLY DEFINED BY ALAN WATTS
"For almost all the classical literature on mysticism is vague, not only in describing the experience, but also in showing rational connections between the experience itself and the various traditional methods recommended to induce it: fasting, concentration, breathing exercises, prayers, incantations, and dances. A traditional master of Zen or Yoga, when asked why such-and-such practices lead or predispose one to the mystical experience, always responds, "This is the way my teacher gave it to me. This is the way I found out. If you're seriously interested, try it for yourself." This answer hardly satisfies an impertinent, scientifically minded, and intellectually curious Westerner. It reminds him of archaic medical prescriptions compounding five salamanders, powdered gallows rope, three boiled bats, a scruple of phosphorus, three pinches of henbane, and a dollop of dragon dung dropped when the moon was in Pisces. Maybe it worked, but what was the essential ingredient?"
Some months later, in 1959, I tried LSD-25 again with Drs. Sterling Bunnell and Michael Agron, who were then associated with the Langley-Porter Clinic, in San Francisco. In the course of two experiments I was amazed and somewhat embarrassed to find myself going through states of consciousness that corresponded precisely with every description of major mystical experiences that I had ever read. (THE DEFINITION IS ABOVE) HE SAYS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING HERE. I TOOK A SHIT AND HAD A MYSTICAL EXPERIENCE. PROVE ME WRONG. WHAT THE FUCK IS HE CALLING MYSTICAL?)
I found I could move with ease into the state of "cosmic consciousness," and in due course became less and less dependent on the chemicals themselves for "tuning in" to this particular wave length of experience. (COSMIC CONSCIOUSNESS - WOO WOO PILED UPON WOO WOO. PURE AND UTTER NONSENSE.) LSD is a great drug and so are mushrooms. If I had them I would do them, Asserting that the drug altered state is supernatural is BULLSHIT. IT IS AS BIG OF A CON AS THE CHRISTIANS TELLING YOU THAT YOU CAN FEEL THE HOLY GHOST. ITS ALL HORSESHIT. IT IS SOMETHING WE DO NATURALLY AND IT IS NOT SPIRITUAL, MYSTERIOUS, OR WHATEVER THAT COSMIC BULLSHIT WAS.
It’s no wonder we cannot see God. The very definition of God is God is not made up of matter. Since God supposedly created all time and matter than “he” is outside of those properties.
This doesn’t mean Gods fingerprint cannot be seen in the world around us. Many people believe God reveals “himself” through nature.
Not being able to observe God is not a great reason not to believe in God since trying to reason why we should be able to observe “him” is outside our realm of comprehension. Many people say well if God is real why doesn’t he show himself? If God was real we would be fools to think we could understand “his” reasons etc.
Furthermore it could be we haven’t developed the senses for God yet. Just like the flower sits in a meadow and cannot see the birds around it, does not mean the birds do not exist. To assume
that as humans we have access to all available knowledge is somewhat ignorant and potentially closes us off to a whole other realm of reality that could exist all around us, we just havent evolved enough to be able to detect it
"Furthermore it could be we haven’t developed the senses for God yet. Just like the flower sits in a meadow and cannot see the birds around it, does not mean the birds do not exist"
In Genesis, Adam and Eve could see God like we see the Sun in the sky.
@ Talyyn
Where does it say in Genesis that "Adam and Eve could see God like we see the Sun in the sky."?
@Jo
God is constantly interacting with Adam in Genesis, and nowhere it is said that he [Adam] can not look and act directly with him.
That's not a definition, it is an unevidenced claim. Like claiming invisible unicorns are made up of invisible candyfloss.
Another unevidenced claim, that you're using to prop up a second unevidenced claim. That second claim sounds unfalsifiable to me as well.
Argumentum ad populum fallacy, you're on a roll here. Care to demonstrate any objective evidence that a deity exists, and that it demonstrates itself through nature?
Have you ever observed unicorns? Do you think this infers a rational reason why you can't observe unicorns, or is your disbelief in unicorns presuppositional? You've also made yet another unevidenced claim, and one that is demonstrably absurd, since if something exists outside of our "realm of comprehension" we would have no way to know this.
You just described all theists as fools, that aside what objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity?
Or invisible unicorns, or leprechauns, or mermaids, we could do this all night, explain why your claim is less absurd than when we substitute garden fairies for a deity? Your flower analogy is too moronic to bother with, it is however demonstrable that a deity with limitless power and knowledge could communicate the entirety of its knowledge to a pebble if it desired to.
Who has assumed this? The fundamental basis of the scientific method is an admission of ignorance, it's religions and the religious who try to claim absolute knowledge exists in the form of an omniscient deity, a deity they can demonstrate no objective evidence for.
And there could be mermaids made of candy in this realm right? Since we're simply making up unevidenced claims any and all claims can be seen as potentially valid in your absurd reasoning. Also living things evolve to perfectly match their environment, so the idea we'd ever evolve to recognise an environment that we cannot detect in an tangible or physical way is risible.
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