@arakish: Heathen! Blasphemer! Sinner! Burn In Hell! The Faithful never question the Blue Creator Bunny!

I got better.

If science could build a machine that could listen in to some of the ravenly fucking insane shit that I hear in my head ... they would give me medications to help.

No. I kid. But If there was a machine that could amplify my thoughts, you’d all change your minds about Supreme Beings.

@Kafei

Yes, it's called ego death in psychology. Michael Pollan has spoken on this aspect of it.

I wish I had the time to follow all your links. I do appreciate the time you take to support your arguments. This is at the very least considerable more effort then what a lot of debaters do. But in the interest of time I am going to respond to what you write and not get into responding to the links you present.

I am familiar with ego death. I have taken psychedelics before, but stopped short of something super strong like DMT, I have experienced some ego loss, but never ego death. The initial ramp up on "softer" psychedelics for me terrified me some, even though it quickly passed and I was able to enjoy the rest of the experience in a safe/happy place. I don't think I will ever try DMT or something similar as I am genuinely rather terrified of it, and I tend to try to face my fears instead of hide from them and I am still not very interested. I did experience fairly intense effect of the loss of the ability detect the passage of time. In my most intense psychedelic experience I could not have told while I was in it if I was in for 2 seconds or 2 hours. My first question coming out of it was "how long was I on the floor?" Pretty much the same as when I have suffered concussions, "how long was I out?"

Well, what I'm trying to explain to you, is yes, there is science out there that supports what I've laid out here.

I will follow the link you post here and get back to you on this, as it seems pretty central to this conversation.

The ego death has occured, this is also recognized in the research as the core feature of mystical experience, being a Unity with all that is and could ever be.

Are you saying shaman's/mystics etc can stay in this state of ego death? Perhaps I got the wrong impression about ego death, but my understanding (and "edge" experience of it." A true ego death would leave a person unable to communicate while "ego death" is taking place.

but a recognition that arises from the very death of the ego in a temporary transformation of consciousness.

Agree there, I do think that ego death is a temporary transformation of the consciousness, but at least in my own (limited!) experience and my observation of others (small limited sample size to be sure!) That no greater "truths" are found that I was not already aware of. I have noticed I was able to channel some of psychotropic experiences to help aid me in the long term subtle ways to be less anxious, more relaxed and at "peace" with a little bit better understanding of myself and other humans. I also (other then brief onset/ramp up periods,) have had great experiences with psychotropics that was overall quite enjoyable to me as just experiencing "life" from slightly different "lenses" for a while. I even tried mediating both with and w/o drugs focusing on more philosophical thoughts, writing them down etc. And finding later that thoughts that I thought were profound at the time, simply are not when examined with a clear mind at a later time.
 
 

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You have to love how 'God' in any religion, is everywhere, everything etc.....

And yet it pushed into the furthest boundaries of possibilities, reasoning and rationality in order to prevent a bunch of moderately evolved primates from knowing its true essence.

And how the fuck do these people know what their God is? How do they know it's an 'absolute' for example.

Utter bollocks of the highest possible order.

Could you imagine scientist pulling of the same shit with say evolution? Or the big bang?

Rather then investigating, we will just say that's what it is, that's the cause and push any possibility of finding out more to the furthest reaches of possibility.

@Kafei: Still waiting for anything, anything at all, that's "concrete."

@LostLocke

You keep saying "well established in the scientific literature" but keep linking to a Youtube video. Why not link directly to the the literature itself?

I have done that. Here's a complete list of all the studies that have been produced by Johns Hopkins and have been peer-reviewed and published in the Scientific Journal of Psychopharmacology. This is ongoing research taking place at Johns Hopkins, and as this research continues to build, so will that list.

@Old man shouts

Because the legitimate research doesn't justify his conclusions about a 'divine oneness', that is why. All the research has shown is that hallucinatory mystical experiences vary in depth and intensity (hence the table of intensity in experience) .
That after very high 'heroic' doses of certain drugs certain brain centres are paralysed (for want of a better description) and others agitated giving rise to a euphoria or sensations of timelessness and "universal love" (to coin a much abused phrase)

Actually, this "divine oneness" or Unity is a fundamental core feature of the "complete" mystical experience. It's definitely something universally reported by all volunteers who meet the criteria for the CME. This is the break between the subject-object duality that we all experiencing in our ordinary everyday waking consciousness. That boundary is completely collapses in this experience, this is also referred to as Non Duality in eastern philosophy, Fana in Islam or Theoria in Christianity.

The facts are that certain meditation techniques can also give a sense of timelessness or slowing down of time. It is something that my martial art (kendo) practises for. I was lucky in experiencing it twice. Similar effects are sought in Kyudo, Iai, and Jo-do. All of which I have also practised. That these effects exist are NOT proof of a divinity, god or oneness, and coupled with extreme doses of drugs are doubly subject to error.

Well, I'm not talking about time dilation or slowing down time, but a very literal impression of there being no time at all, and it is from that vantage point in which a mystic can recognize the very evidence for the Perennial philosophy.

In short chemical psychedelia research is NOT related to legitimate consciousness research which has been conducted for a very long time.

The fact is that this is legitimate science taking place. They just got psilocybin legalized a couple of states now because of this research that's happening at Hopkins. If it weren't legitimate, I don't think it'd carry that much political weight. This research continues at Johns Hopkins University as we speak, and has prompted other psychedelic studies around the world.

Any attempt to introduce a god/divine/oneness concept as a reality or that these studies provide any solid evidence for such a thing apart from personal revelation is absolute buggery bollocks.

I'm pretty sure that's what our physicists are saying today regarding their most advanced ToEs (Theory of Everything). The physicist accepts that all is one, but the mystic intuits it directly.

It is not borne out in the academic papers excepting some wild fringe practitioners who seem to be presuppositionalists. It is a theoretical abstract which is yet to be confirmed, and short of universal "CME" will not be.

The CME is well established. It's an actual phenomenon in consciousness, this is not up for debate. None of this has anything to do at all with presuppositionalism, by the way.

@Sheldon

Why on earth would you be waiting for that? Atheists don't validate or falsify scientific data, that can only be done by the scientific method.

Yes, but they also can deny scientific research like this that has the potential to undermine atheism.

What always strikes me as blindingly obvious here is the kind of global reaction any remotely objective person would have to anticipate from the much touted theistic claim that there is scientific evidence for any part of their beliefs. I've just checked and not only has this [paradigm shifting news entirely escaped the mainstream global scientific community,, not a single global news network seems to have noticed.

If you go on their main CSP website that hosts the studies, you'll find all the times it's been mentioned in the media. People are definitely waking up to this stuff, albeit quite slowly, but it is happening.

One last piece of irony is the palpable hilarity of placing a link entitled legitimate scientific research, which links to YouTube. It's also worth looking at the dictionary definition of mysticism here:

The lectures are on the peer-reviewed studies.

mysticism
noun
1. belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.

2. vague or ill-defined religious or spiritual belief, especially as associated with a belief in the occult.

Yes, this experience is a complete absorption, and mystics long ago would describe Theoria as an aborption into the Absolute, likewise the Hindu described the experience of samadhi as the dissolution into Brahman. These are not ill-defined, but concretely defined concepts that have been construed from these very specific transformations of consciousness. So that the "esoteric" is not something "vague or ill-defined," but only understood by those who've been initiated, who've had the CME. For the mystic, they need not to read a peer-reviewed paper on mystical experiences, they don't need to read religious scripture about mystical experience, they simply draw upon their own mystical experience for this insight. So, to the uninitiated person who hasn't had this experience, the "esoteric" then seems vague, ill-defined, nebulous, etc.

@Cognostic The guy is talking about the therapeutic effects of psychoactive drugs. Set, setting, dosage, Nothing to do with Sacred.

Pyshechedelics are also called entheogen which means literally "generate the divine with in," it's this aspect of these psychedelic substances as to why they're considered sacred. They were the utmost sacred sacrament for the Mayans and the Aztecs.

What do you imagine this man said that is "Concrete." That defines anything at all mystical or spiritual?

Well, pretty every lecture he's taken the time to explain this stuff. Including his interviews.

Not one study concretly defines any of the terms we are discussing. YOU SAID "CONCRETE" Still waiting.