how did the entire Universe come from nothing?

401 posts / 0 new

Tue, 10/23/2018 - 10:55

LogicFTW

Ok let's say there is say there are n amount of possibilities that what I said is true so I have a 1/n chance of being correct, if I proposed a different theory for the possibility of how the universe came into existence we would palpably be in same situation.

I agree. I believe that was the point I was trying to make.

The example I'd given was just a possibility of how the universe could have came into existence and how i believe a logical explanation is God.

This is fine to me. Your belief.

No matter which theory i propose we still arrive at the same conclusion of where did that specific particle etc come from?

Yep.

and so far God has been the only plausible answer,

Umm what? Why is your particular specific god idea now suddenly the only plausible answer? How did you make that leap? Because it sounds nice? Do you have anything at all that backs why you made that decision beyond that "oh this is nice and simple fantasy makes lots of sense to me!" Perhaps maybe because you have a vested interest defending a choice/decision/idea you made earlier?

i do have great respect for science in fact i'm doing my a-levels now with plans to go to university to study physics(God willing) as it has been a life long ambition.

Great to hear! We need more folks studying the sciences! As you learn the scientific method, the importance of real, tangible, repeatable evidence perhaps you can choose to also apply such careful examination and standards of proof to your god idea.

Anyway, back to the point, science answers many of our greatest questions but it cannot answer anything further back than the point at which science was created, it surely can't have created itself.

While I would phrase it differently, yes science can not cover what is yet unknown and undetectable to us, for instance, like what happened before the big bang. I do think filling in those voids with a particular "god" idea is not advisable, but everyone is free to do what they wish as long as it does not effect other people's freedom to do the same. I think that makes science a more respectable and noble pursuit to truth, as it clearly defines what it does not know, and does not try to pass off the unknown as fact, science is built on what is known instead of unknown and making up stuff.

Why cant the "universe" create itself? Do you have some sort of special knowledge the rest of us do not have, that before the big bang (of which we do not know anything about) there still was a hard and fast rule that the universe cannot create it self? Maybe there always was something? If you do have special knowledge that can actually be verified about what happened before the big bang I suggest you publish your findings in a scientific journal and claim your nobel prize right away!

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Fri, 11/02/2018 - 19:09

(Reply to #62) #63

Apollo

LogicFTW,

to quote from you post
"and so far God has been the only plausible answer,

I like what you wrote in this quote, and in the rest of your post. The existence of a creator God is possible, but it can't be proven as a necessity.
maybe there was always something, and the universe created itself from that something.

Fri, 11/02/2018 - 19:46

(Reply to #63) #64

arakish

Hey Numb Brain

The "and so far God has been the only plausible answer" is him quoting from your post and answering your numb brain claim.

I am beginning to think all the Religious Absolutists who visit these boards just do not understand and comprehend the English language and the formatting on these boards.

rmfr

Tue, 10/23/2018 - 20:21

(Reply to #64) #65

Tin-Man

@Quantum

...*doorbell ringing*.... Hi there, sir. Do you have a few moments to talk about our divine universe creator Carl? He is the mostess awesomest ginormous invisible blue universe-pooping Cosmic Bunny ever!

Wed, 10/24/2018 - 05:50

(Reply to #65) #66

Old man shouts ...

tm
If I was a different sex (from you, if required) in a different universe, and it was legal I would marry your brain.

Thu, 10/25/2018 - 09:32

(Reply to #66) #67

Tin-Man

@Old Man

Awww... How sweet!... *beaming smile*... Where's the ring? And where are we going for the honeymoon? Oh, dear! Now I have to go pick out bridesmaid dresses! So exciting!.... *giggle-giggle-giggle*....

Tue, 10/30/2018 - 10:11

(Reply to #67) #68

Apollo

quantummechanist,

I suspect if the universe did create itself, there would be no way to prove it. It's self creation would be an article of Faith by Athiests, who ironically, claim to have no faith, only facts. (Facts, not faith: the fairy tale of atheism.)

Tue, 10/30/2018 - 10:18

(Reply to #68) #69

David Killens

As an atheist I do not claim

As an atheist I do not claim that the universe came from nothing , nor that it has been around forever.

WE DO NOT KNOW.
There is no faith involved, just skepticism and a desire for empirical evidence.

Tue, 10/30/2018 - 15:07

(Reply to #69) #70

arakish

My FACTS — Formulated

My FACTS — Formulated Accurately Codified Truth in Science

trumps your

FAITH — Falsehoods Assumptions Innuendos Treachery and Hogwash

everytime.

rmfr

Tue, 10/30/2018 - 21:02

(Reply to #70) #71

Cognostic

How did you give yourself a 1

How did you give yourself a 1 in n chance of being correct? You don't get to pose a different possibility for the creation of a universe and then automatically assume it has a chance of being correct. Please demonstrate how your 1 chance actually has a chance of being correct.

Just because you say something does not make it possible. WTF are you on about?

@ " i believe a logical explanation is God."

Why in the hell would you believe that. There is nothing "logical" about any of the assertions for the existence of God or gods. Each and every one of them, ever proposed, has been based of fallacies of logic. Not one has ever stood against critical examination. That is why the GOD HYPOTHESIS is a NULL HYPOTHESIS. Where in the fk is this logic you are speaking of? Please share!

@ No matter which theory i propose we still arrive at the same conclusion of where did that specific particle etc come from?

And the correct answer would be - WE DON'T KNOW. Do you not understand that causality breaks down at Planck Time? Do you not know that time runs both ways, backwards and forwards? Causality is a product of the physical world we live in but not of the atomic world. T

You keep spouting this "Science did not create itself" nonsense. Every time you say it you are demonstrating that you have no idea at all what "science" means. Assuming science is a thing, there is no reason at all that it could not have crated itself. You are applying macro physics of causality to a domain that does not function with causal relationships. PHYSICS OF TIME, SPACE, ENERGY, ALL BREAK DOWN AT PLANCK TIME. Since you missed this lecture in school........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AMCcYnAsdQ

Tue, 10/23/2018 - 09:44

#72

Randomhero1982

Does this prove a god?

Demonstrate how you regress via causal links from our observable universe - matter and anti matter collisding to release large quantities of energy of gamma rays and elementary particles (big bang) - prior states and conditions - keep regressing as much as you like using quantum physics then to the deity of your choice.

How?

I could demonstrate how this argument always appears...

1. I have a delicious meal (our universe)
2. It came from the chef (big bang)
3. Here's the list of ingredients (prior state)
4. An invisible cosmic Badger chucked the ingrediates into the fridge when the chef wasn't looking and left zero evidence of the event!!! (God)

Tue, 10/23/2018 - 09:52

(Reply to #72) #73

quantummechanist

It's really not to the "deity

It's really not to the "deity of my choice" as you say, as a matter of fact I never chose a deity to begin with I just said God, secondly I'm not assigning quantum physics to the deity of my choice. I'm just trying to tell people that how could something come from literally nothing. I'm saying God is a plausible explanation for the existence of the universe. Put simply I'm trying to take you back to when the universe was first born and showing you that this stuff right here today came from something.

Wed, 10/24/2018 - 08:12

(Reply to #73) #74

LogicFTW

You have stated your belief

You have stated your belief is Islam.

Would you seriously be okay if the "god" you were trying to prove was the flying spaghetti monster? What about the christian god? What if the plausible explanation for god you are trying to find proved the rainbow pooping unicorn god?

No you are trying to prove your Islamic god. Except the problem is, your "proof" so far proves nothing at all. It is strictly conjecture about what happened before the big bang, which remains unknown to all of us.

Thu, 10/25/2018 - 05:54

(Reply to #74) #75

quantummechanist

my God is the same as the God

my God is the same as the God of christian's and jew's. monotheism is the belief in one God. When religion first came to be, the message was monotheism but then many other false beliefs came along. All the prophet(peace be upon all of them) proclaimed one message throughout human existence, to worship one God, people started to deter from that and went on to believing in multiple gods, that why nobody believes in apollo,zeus artemis etc; because the idea of God being infinite is that He is not limited i.e. when people believe in 2 gods for example then that'd be illogical because they wouldn't be infinite.
If you read the old testament you will see that jesus(pbuh) didn't proclaim to be God's biological son but rather a son of God as in a pious dutiful religious individual, a lot of polytheistic religions emerged after the time of the prophet Muhammed (pbuh). But the message from all the prophets was to worship one God. Allah isn't a separate God in which only muslims believe in, christians do to.
Back in 7th century arabia before Muhammed(pbuh) was born many people referred to God as Allah, because that what it essentially means in arabic.

Thu, 10/25/2018 - 06:07

(Reply to #75) #76

Old man shouts ...

@ quantummechanist

Congratulations. In one paragraph you have managed to display your complete ignorance of the origins of monotheism. A distressing lack of interest in history and finally, and most sad, your complete adherence to a foolish, nasty theism that has no basis in fact or relevance to modern life.
*sigh* I deal with millennials a lot, you, young man have a lot to learn, and it will not come from your religion.

Thu, 10/25/2018 - 06:43

(Reply to #76) #77

Sheldon

"When religion first came to

"When religion first came to be, the message was monotheism but then many other false beliefs came along."

That sounds highly dubious to me, and there is plenty of evidence that there are religions that predate the Abrahamic religions by millennia. A more salient question however would be why the Abrahamic deity is so tardy in making itself known. The universe is over 14 billion years old, the earth almost 4 billion, life existed and evolved for hundreds of millions of years before humans evolved around just 150 k years ago, yet this deity stayed reticent until just 2 to 3 thousand years ago, supposedly deciding a personal appearance was warranted in ancient Palestine of all places, just 2 thousand years ago.

The whole idea is so absurd it's risible. Unless of course your deity is as fictional as all the others, then it makes perfect sense.

"2 gods for example then that'd be illogical because they wouldn't be infinite."

It;d be irrational because there is no objective evidence, but I don't see how two deities can rationally be asserted as likely to be infinite than one, care to evidence your claim?

"Allah isn't a separate God in which only muslims believe in, christians do to."

The deity is fictional either way, so your subjective opinion here is entirely moot.

"Back in 7th century arabia before Muhammed(pbuh) was born many people referred to God as Allah, because that what it essentially means in arabic."

Have you heard of common logical fallacies? Any claim assertion or argument containing a common logical fallacy cannot be rationally asserted as true. The one you have used here is called argumentum ad populum, it's a bare appeal to numbers. The number of people who hold a belief tells us nothing about the validity of that belief. .

Thu, 10/25/2018 - 07:50

(Reply to #77) #78

quantummechanist

I didn't say once that humans

I didn't say once that humans haven't been around for 200,000(not 150,000) nor do I agree with a lot of what the new testament says either. In fact according to evolutionary biologists the first species of human 'homo' evolved that was homo erectus, who didn't have our complex thinking, they evolved overtime to become homo sapiens. Just to let you know the universe is approximately 13.75 billion years old (1.375x10^10 years). Anyway please don't put words in my mouth, i never said once that God has only being telling us for 2-3 thousand years humans existed before that and we believe there are were 124,000 prophets only 50 of whom are mentioned. And btw dude you can't prove God doesn't exist, even by logic, the atheism logic is something came from nothing. Whereas the theist logic comes from logic i.e. this universe came from something it had a cause, and that cause must of always been there. And don't try to tell me that my definition of nothing is not what sciences define it as. My term of nothing and every scientist on this planet both agree that nothing means 0(doesn't exist). you saying that God is a myth is absolutely irrational. Myself as a theist believes in rational logic and if you think it is irrational to believe in God then the belief that the universe came from nothing is even worse. Some people will just not get it as it says in the Quran 2:18 "Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return [to the right path]." I invite you to not to change your views per say, but to just open your mind a bit and stop being arrogant.Stop thinking 'these theists are dumb ignorant and delusional' and try to listen respectfully
thanks

Thu, 10/25/2018 - 08:38

(Reply to #78) #79

LogicFTW

@quantummechanist

Lets try this again.
You owe me 1 million dollars. Prove to me you do not.
You cant.
Why not?
Because I made the claim without evidence.

This is the same thing as a theist challenging an atheist to disprove their god idea. A claim made without evidence cannot be disproven.

All someone can do is point out that there is no evidence for god.

To which a theist can then attempt to counter that by saying I do have evidence for god, it is x,y, and z.

It is there where someone can argue over the evidence.

For example: one area of many religions that is actually physically manifested is: prayer. People can go in and measure that, is it effective? Does it do anything? We can even hook up sensors to the brain and see a little bit of what is occurring inside the skull etc.

If the evidence does not hold up, it is back to the claim of god is a hollow nonsense claim, it does not need to be disproven, it is a nonsense gibberish claim, just like my: "you owe me 1 million dollars claim."

Thu, 10/25/2018 - 09:47

(Reply to #79) #80

David Killens

@quantummechanist

"And btw dude you can't prove God doesn't exist"

I agree completely, but neither can you prove that a god exists. And we can substitute "god" with "magic cosmic fluffy bunnies" and have the same conversation.

"the atheism logic is something came from nothing"

That is insanely incorrect. First off, there is no "atheist logic". Atheists can be identified by one definition, a lack of belief in any gods. There is no logic attached to it, it is just a declaration on position.

I am assuming that you are referring to the scientific position, in which you are also incorrect. When Hubble's momentous discovery was announced, it was (incorrectly) explained by some that in quantum math, particles can appear "out of nowhere". That has proven to be incorrect, and if you actually connected to the legitimate scientific community and asked about the origin of this universe, the response would be "we don't know, but we have some interesting ideas".

Fri, 11/02/2018 - 20:25

(Reply to #80) #81

Grinseed

@OP

@OP
"When religion first came to be, the message was monotheism..."

Absolute twaddle.
The claim that the Jewish god was the only god in existence was not made in the Old Testament until Isaiah, which was written during the Babylonian exile (c. 580- 530 BCE). Before then the theology of Palestine/Canaan as practiced by the so called twelve tribes, was polytheism incorporating many gods from earlier and co-existing cultures, none of which claimed monotheism. This is all specifically supported in the Old Testament . Elohim, Asherah, Baal, and Anat, Canaanite gods and goddesses worshipped openly up to the invasions of Assyria and Babylon. Read how King
Josiah tried to stop polytheist worship in 2 Chronicles 34. He ultimately failed; his successors reinstated all the gods he tried to erase.
The so called 10 Commandments included "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." and not "I am the only god."

And you wont find anything Jesus said about anything in the Old Testament.

Wed, 10/24/2018 - 08:45

(Reply to #81) #82

David Killens

@quantummechanist

"I'm saying God is a plausible explanation for the existence of the universe."

By that logic we can replace the "god" word with anything. Mentor of Arisia, Darth Vader, bunnies, heck, turnips created this universe. And it is all pure unsupported speculation.

Personally, I prefer to go with logic, science, and sanity.

Wed, 10/24/2018 - 11:43

(Reply to #82) #83

Sheldon

"I never chose a deity to

"I never chose a deity to begin with I just said God,"

So which deity didn't you choose to believe in? And what objective evidence can you demonstrate for it?

Tue, 10/30/2018 - 10:18

(Reply to #83) #84

David Killens

Where did your god come from?

Tue, 10/30/2018 - 11:44

(Reply to #84) #85

Apollo

quantummechanist,

yes, it is perfectly ok to believe that the creation was created by God.

The fact that atheists believe differently, IE, that the universe created itself, is their personal choice made from within their subjective worldview. They offer no compelling reason to believe as they do.

Wed, 10/31/2018 - 07:50

(Reply to #85) #86

arakish

Null Brain Apollo: "The fact

Null Brain Apollo: "The fact that atheists believe differently, IE, that the universe created itself, is their personal choice made from within their subjective worldview. They offer no compelling reason to believe as they do."

I am going to start calling you Null Brain, because you ain't got any.

Show me the proof of ANY atheist who has stated that they "believe the universe created itself." Not one atheist has ever stated that. This is further proof you belong to that group of retards known as Religious Absolutists.

FACTS about Religious Absolutists:

(Although they have the Ten Commanments completely wrong, I am going to use what they do call the ten commandments.)

Thou shalt not kill. Yet Christianity has killed more people than ANY other cause.
Thou shalt not commit adultery. Yet more Christian marriages fail because of infidelity.
Thou shalt not steal. Yet Christians have stole more treasures than ANY other institute. Look at the treasures in the Vatican.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. Yet Christians are the biggest liars of any people.

Funny how you Christians claim these are commandments, yet you break them every day of your lives.

And the True Ten Commandments are in Exodus 34:14-26 and are ACTUALLY called the Ten Commandments in Exodus 34:28.

Thus, what you are claiming that atheist believe is nothing more than you bearing false witness against your neighbors.

Moderators, don't we have a rule about users lying about what others have posted? If we don't, we should.

rmfr

Tue, 10/23/2018 - 10:01

#87

The_Quieter

It never stops being funny to

It never stops being funny to watch religions which can't both be right try to use the exact same arguments to show why they must be right.

It never stops being funny to watch the special pleading of 'something can't come from nothing, but my god can'

Tue, 10/23/2018 - 10:29

(Reply to #87) #88

quantummechanist

I genuinely cannot see whats

I genuinely cannot see whats funny. God has no beginning, what i'm saying is how can something that is proposed by scientists to have had a beginning (which is consistent with the laws of physics), how can that thing not have had a cause. That's why I go right back to the origin of the universe to explain why there must be a God. And please i'd much rather you not put words into my mouth "but my God can come from nothing" the explanation of God is that he had no beginning and isn't bound by the laws of physics therefore it palpably makes sense

Tue, 10/23/2018 - 10:36

(Reply to #88) #89

Randomhero1982

How do you know this apparent

How do you know this apparent god had no beginning? Evidence please.

Tue, 10/23/2018 - 11:37

(Reply to #89) #90

quantummechanist

Before I do that we have to

Before I do that we have to come to common terms on something.
Do you agree that logical explanations can be definitive answers?
i.e you have no physical proof that your great great great great grandmother exists, but logically and deductively you know that she did exist?

Tue, 10/23/2018 - 11:42

(Reply to #90) #91

LogicFTW

Careful, after much effort,

Careful, after much effort, one could perhaps trace back the family tree and find the remains of their great great great great grandmother. (A grandmother that coincidentally could well be the great great great great grandmother of 100's or 1000's of people alive today!)

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