On Rules

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Witness1625's picture
On Rules

So, I have a question, that I hope you all can answer for me. I asked the atheists over at "Atheistforum.com" So now I am here. Please, I would like answer.
Why are there rulse on this forum? How do you justify them?
Thanks,
Caleb

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watchman's picture
OK Witness1625 ....

OK Witness1625 ....

Lets have it then.... what is your real point...(I do hope its not the old routine about being moral without god)...

Oh ..and by the way...if you take the time to look around you may notice that there are no list of rules...no tabs leading to rules....what we DO have is a set of guidelines ... see that ..over there on the right of the page..... just a simple list of things to make discussions run smoothly....... see that? GUIDELINES .... not rules....

So ,anyway..... what is it you really want to say??

Witness1625's picture
Right, so my question is why

Right, so my question is why are there guidelines to this forum?

watchman's picture
Witness ....

Witness ....

I believe you've already been given the answer......

"just a simple list of things to make discussions run smoothly."

You have a difficulty with this ?

cmallen's picture
Come on, Witness! We are

Come on, Witness! We are anxiously awaiting... With bated breath, even... Your clever little homage to the KJV bible in your username offers the promise that you are a witty theist who has something profound to reveal. Knock our proverbial socks off.

Spewer's picture
"Why are there rules on this

"Why are there rules on this forum? How do you justify them?"
This is a private forum entitled to place any rules the founders wish. As a voluntary member, you are free to decline the rules and choose not to join.

Why would you imply that such rules demand justification? They do not. If you start your own forum, you alone get to decide the rules that apply. Why would you expect someone who starts a forum to justify rules to you?

cmallen's picture
It's just a presuppositional

It's just a presuppositional baiting tactic a la Hovind. I'm sure he plans to blow our minds by revealing how having rules proves his YEC viewpoint in some indirect way.

Witness1625's picture
Sorry, I am not some arguing,

Sorry, I am not some arguing, professional apologist. I am not a Greg Bahnsen or a Ken Ham. I am just an 18 year old. So maybe it shall be easy for you to conquer my question. But camallen is right, whether or not it is what he terms it "a la Hovind" or not. My question is, why in an atheistic worldview should there be rules at all? Why is it wrong for someone troll or spam? Why did the founder of this forum decide on these rules? Why is he going to prohibit me from posting if I don't follow his guidelines? Isn't that just being arbitrary?

You might respond as watchmen did and say they are so the discussion will run smoothly, or so that time here will be productive. But Why should time run smoothly? Why should we be productive?

I believe atheism cannot answer these questions and that Christian Theism can. If I am mistaken, prove me wrong.

I am not trying to be an antagonist, or hostile. If an atheist can answer my question, please do.

Spewer's picture
"But Why should time run

"But Why should time run smoothly? Why should we be productive?"

Because the owners of a website get to determine what should happen on their own site. It's not difficult.

Why would you question why we should not be productive? Did anyone say we should not? What in the world would a god belief have to do with any of that?

Even if it is arbitrary, why would you think that is somehow wrong? Website owners get to set their own rules regardless of whether you think they are arbitrary or not.

Theism or atheism is irrelevant to this discussion. If you think it is relevant, please demonstrate how.

AntigoneRisen's picture
Look, I'm going to be nice,

Look, I'm going to be nice, as you are 18...and at least you are asking questions.

What rules, precisely? Humans invent rules. We have for at least the duration of documented history. The Egyptians had them. The Babylonians had them. Hindus have them. Muslims have them. The United States has them.

I believe rules are good. "Don't kill people and steal stuff." Because we will always have people who are willing to trample upon others for their own gain.

What I do not believe is that rules come from a deity, and I do not believe in eternal punishment or reward. (As no evidence exists of any of those three.) Rules against murder are hardly new to Judaism...every culture has had them. They predate Judaism by quite a long time.

I also think that the rules of Yahweh and even Jesus are often absurd, off-base, and even completely immoral.

I think we have the laws of physics, but these DESCRIBE the universe...they are not externally imposed upon it.

Now, I have a question for you. How do you prove that your rules come from Yahweh and not, for instance, from Durga? If you explain your method to me, perhaps I'll have learned something.

ex-christian_atheist's picture
There aren't forum rules

There aren't forum rules because it is the morally correct thing to do to not troll or spam. There is a goal in mind for this forum. To have discussions without irrelevant posts. We make the rules because we want something, and this is the best way to get it. I want to discuss things, trolls keep me from doing what I want, so I don't let trolls keep posting. Why is that relevant to a god?

Witness1625's picture
So morality is what you want?

So morality is what you want?
Adolf Hitler wanted to annihilate Jews, the Allies stopped him from reaching that goal.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Godwin's law

Godwin's law

Witness1625's picture
Would you prefer the slavery

Would you prefer the slavery example?

science's picture
Why couldn't "God" stop him

Why couldn't "God" stop him BEFORE he murdered the first couple of million. "God" is responsible for the ones lucky enough to escape, but NOT responsible for the ones that didn't? After 9/11, someone stated in a local newspaper that "GOD" held up the buildings long enough for some of the people to escape. Why couldn't HE hold up the buildings long enough for EVERYONE to escape? HE wasn't responsible for the 3,000 people slaughtered, but worked a " miracle" for the few that did? People don't realize how ridiculous this kind of reasoning is. TYPICAL

Witness1625's picture
So are you wondering why bad

So are you wondering why bad things happen?
In my worldview, bad things happen because of sin. Why doesn't God stop all sin and give justice? He is going to, but when He does, that will mean stopping you, because you have violated His law. Don't lie, don't steal, don't kill (the Bible says that whoever hates his brother is a murder), don't commit adultery (Jesus says that if you even look at a another person lustfully you commit adultery in your heart). So you really want God to give justice? To you? Right now? God is patient, He is going to give justice, will you be ready?

However, in your worldview, Yes! Let there be suffering so that the fittest might survive! What is suffering any way? How can there be a wrong, isn't that just your subjective opinion?

science's picture
Drop this, it's getting

Drop this, it's getting boring. When all the starving children are fed, all the diseased children are cured, and there is not one more murdered, abused, molested, or abandoned child, and there are no more atrocities commited in the name of religion, no more maniacs killing innocent people and the defenseless, only then might you say that there is someone watching upstairs that can perform miracles. Unfortunately, we never see those kinds of miracles.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
"Why should time run smoothly

"Why should time run smoothly? Why should we be productive?"

Did you ever wake up in the morning and ask yourself why did I sleep on a bed?
Some one more intelligent than you are might be stupid enough to try to help you and inform you that most probably the reason is that it is more comfortable then the floor or because your mom ordered you to do so.

Then you would do as you just did on this forum and say something stupid like:
"Why should time run smoothly? Why should we be productive?"
Why would I feel more comfortable or why would I feel to obey my mom.

"I believe atheism cannot answer these questions and that Christian Theism can."
OMFG, these are not questions this is just you being stupid.

"Christian Theism can."
LOL, I always wonder where you get these ideas that Christian Theism can answer all questions.

One can use the same similar stupid reasoning as you just did and Christian Theism still does not answer anything.

Try answering this:

Why do you believe god is love?
Whatever answer you put here.............
Why that is?
Answer here...........
Why is that?
Answer here...........
....
...
And it goes on like this, because you are not really looking for an answer.

"I am not trying to be an antagonist, or hostile."
You are, you you just don't care to understand why.

Witness1625's picture
So are you saying that the

So are you saying that the reason my question's are stupid is because Christian Theism can't answer them either? Or just because they are "Obvious"?

I believe you are wrong.

Because of God, rules are in existence, because God himself is a God of order and He expects us to be orderly.
I believe God is love, because the Bible says so, and I believe the Bible in inerrant. I believe the Bible is inerrant because when I start with the Bible the world makes sense. But I wouldn't assert that as evidence to convince you.

AntigoneRisen's picture
Have you read the Bible cover

Have you read the Bible cover-to-cover in order? Ever? I think not.

Let's first start with inerrant. I'll only use the first chapter of Genesis. In Genesis 1:5, Yahweh has already created light and separated it from darkness. He calls the light "day" and the dark "night." There's an evening and a morning of the first day:

"And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."

On the second day, Yahweh has created a firmament he calls "Heaven" (1:8).

On the third day, he creates plants, that require the Sun for photosynthesis (1:11-13).

On the fourth day(1:14-19), he finally creates the Sun (which is necessary for day, and day/night cycles due to the rotation of the Earth) . Even more absurdly, the Bible states that the Moon is a lesser of the same thing as the Sun - a light - yet the Moon is entirely different and does not produce it's own light. The stars are referred to as entirely different objects, yet the Sun is a star (1:16).

So, anyone with a 6th grade education can easily conclude the Bible is not inerrant by the 19th verse of the entire thing. I could go on and on, but I won't.

Read your Bible. I encourage it. Nothing could be more beneficial for you.

cmallen's picture
No one said your questions

No one said your questions are stupid. Anyone here would jump right on them for doing so. I can only speak for myself, but I think you have a very good question here that is deserving of consideration. Good on ya.

Witness1625's picture
"You can keep asking stupid

"You can keep asking stupid questions like this till infinitude because you are not looking for an answer." So someone did say my questions are stupid. Jeff Vella Leone.

BTW I appreciate your nice attitude.

cmallen's picture
Sorry, I didn't see that.

Sorry, I didn't see that. There really aren't any stupid questions. If someone finds a question stupid it says way more about them than it does about the questioner.

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
"Why should time run smoothly

"Why should time run smoothly? Why should we be productive?"

You think, this is not a stupid question? really?

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
EDIT:

EDIT:
"You might respond as watchmen did and say they are so the discussion will run smoothly, or so that time here will be productive. But Why should time run smoothly? Why should we be productive?"

He asked a question and he was replied to by watchmen, then he keeps asking questions on very basic common sens things, not to have an answer but to make sure that his question is not answered ever.

This is called a stupid question, because it is made just so there is never an answer for it.

Plain stupid, no other word to put it more clearly.

science's picture
Yes, God has all these rules.

Yes, God has all these rules...so why dosen't the religious faction obey them ALL? It appears to me that the "10 COMMANDMENTS" are multiple choice for the overwhelming majority of "God fearing" Christians!! Most of them, from what I've seen, pick, choose, and bend them to accomodate whatever lifestyle, or "sins" they choose to live! This is what happens when people are "brainwashed"to believe in this illogical nonsense. People are taught from when they are very young to completely ignore common sense and reality...breeding weak minded people, and producing a country of addicts...addicted to evertything under the sun you can think of. This world would be a much more peaceful place WITHOUT RELIGION!! More people have been slaughtered in the name of religion, than anything else on earth...and it continues to this day. All over things that common sense, logic, science, physiology, and biology will tell you could NEVER HAVE HAPPENED!! All over NOTHING...HOW CRAZY IS THAT!!! Scietists are piling up evidence by the day, ( look it up, read the papers) using high powered, sophisticated equipment, and have scientific proof of events dating back billions of years..and it has NOTHING TO DO WITH A GOD!! They are on the cusp of figuring out what happened at the begining of time. But no amount of proof will be enough to satisfy people who believe as you do. So, who is kidding whom?? You are kidding yourself!!

Travis Hedglin's picture
"Why are there rulse on this

"Why are there rulse on this forum?"

To promote communication and reasonable discussion.

"How do you justify them?"

A forum, being purely an instrument of communication and discussion, would be rather shitty without such rules to keep solicitors and trolls at bay. Speaking of which, which are you?

Witness1625's picture
Absolutely! I agree.

Absolutely! I agree.
Rules do make discussion so much easier.
However, Why if there is no God would anyone want to be reasonable? Why can't I just contradict myself and be inconsistent? Why are there laws of logic, and laws of morality? After all, say it was a School, why would it be wrong to cheat? Wouldn't that be just using my skills to try to farther my existence?

Travis Hedglin's picture
"However, Why if there is no

"However, Why if there is no God would anyone want to be reasonable?"

I don't really see what god has to do with it. People try to be reasonable because it is useful and effective, nothing else is necessary.

"Why can't I just contradict myself and be inconsistent?"

You can, go for it. True, you MIGHT get banned for it if you get too inflammatory or obnoxious, but that doesn't by any means take away your ability to do so. Now, you have both the right and ability to act like a child if you want, but that doesn't mean anyone will care or take you seriously. If you want respect, if you want people to listen to you or consider what you have to say, I wouldn't recommend this course of action.

"Why are there laws of logic, and laws of morality?"

There are a few problems with this, I will just start with two:

A: The laws of logic are purely DESCRIPTIVE laws, I.E. observations about how existence itself behaves, it is not a divine judiciary code in any sense. We have the laws we do now after a great deal of trial, error, and revision. Think of it less like a probate code, and more like a gentleman's agreement between us and the universe.

B: You are treating morality like it is external to consciousness, you will not find morality under a rock or on mars as it is not a physical object, morality is a conceptual paradigm against which we judge actions and behaviors. That is precisely WHY it changes so much form person to person, and from culture to culture, we create morality through the exercise of reason and judgement instead of proclamation.

"After all, say it was a School, why would it be wrong to cheat?"

Because it would be completely counter to the purpose of school in the first place. Why is it wrong to cheat in a board game? Because it is counter to the rules and purpose of the game.

"Wouldn't that be just using my skills to try to farther my existence?"

Not really, when you get out of school and have to implement the things you did not learn into practice, you eventually realize that you wronged yourself more than anyone else.

Witness1625's picture
"The laws of logic are purely

"The laws of logic are purely DESCRIPTIVE laws, I.E. observations about how existence itself behaves, it is not a divine judiciary code in any sense. We have the laws we do now after a great deal of trial, error, and revision. Think of it less like a probate code, and more like a gentleman's agreement between us and the universe."
So are you saying, "We use them because they work."?

"You are treating morality like it is external to consciousness, you will not find morality under a rock or on mars as it is not a physical object, morality is a conceptual paradigm against which we judge actions and behaviors. That is precisely WHY it changes so much form person to person, and from culture to culture, we create morality through the exercise of reason and judgement instead of proclamation."
So then if morality changes from culture to culture, why was Hitler's Germany wrong? And if morality is determined by the culture, it was wrong for reformers like William Wilberforce, or Abraham Lincoln to try to prohibit slavery, because they were going against the culture which said, "Prohibiting slavery is wrong".

CyberLN's picture
Do you eat shrimp?

Do you eat shrimp?

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