Why I believe in god
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Like I said, I tried it without, and I had the same qualities, just less. I've lived life without belief, this works better. Call it a crutch if you will. I call it the fruit of the Spirit. If others are filled with that fruit as much or more without faith as they are with it, that is wonderful!
Crutch? ROTFLMAO...yes my words, but lets call it what it is, a GIGANTIC failure in the basic human trait of reason. You know, believing in something without objective evidence of existence, is a failure in reason at the least, and at the most, its delusional. How do I tell which you are?
I'll be ok, actually I've found better for it. Not sure how believing this universe was created vs. happenstance and that faith gives me joy damages my ability to reason.
Yup...right there is the problem. You don't see. The standard model of particle physics has many immutable laws in it, that define reality, and our universe. One of them defines the determinants of reality, saying, "for something to exist in reality, it has to have, or interact with, matter." The simple fact that you can't differentiate supernaturalism, which does not exist, from reality, is alarming. If I found out you were in public office or a teacher for example, teaching others your woo woo beliefs, you would be looking for a different job very quickly. And you don't see how believing in supernatural things is not irrational and not a colossal failure in basic reason? Ummmmm ya. ROTFLMAO.
All traits (positive and negative) and actions (positive and negative) come from YOU. That’s it.
Now, in your head you may offer up excuses or reasons to yourself - I can be “an asshole” if I believe no god OR I can be “a great person” if I believe there is a god.
It’s still YOU. It’s still your decision. If the only way you can be kind and peaceful etc etc is by a belief in an invisible make-belief mythical fairytale, well that’s your choice.
@Whitefire13 I would love to find others that have tried the comparison and found likewise or differently than I have.
I find myself plus God to have more fruit than myself alone. Does anyone find more of those traits in themselves when they've rejected God? I'm not talking about what religion says God is, I'm talking about that internal part of me, and maybe others. I can only speak for myself, that connects via faith.
@Homer ...” tried the comparison”
What comparison???? Tin said it. I’ve said it. It is all YOU.
YOU’VE decided you need “insert whatever crutch/tool” to BE “whatever quality”
Read it. Think about it. Digest it.
You’ve said or claimed “ plus God ”. Now this is quite a claim! Please provide proof. Especially since there is some form of “relationship” ...I’d hate to think you’ve developed a “relationship” with an invisible friend - my boys went through that stage at about 5...didn’t last long, even they couldn’t keep up the one-sidedness of it all.
If I could prove it, or you could disprove it, we wouldn't be having a discussion, would we?
I don’t have to disprove anything. You’re claiming god’s spirit gives you fruit (qualities).
I’m asking for proof of god...this is apparently where this spirit is from - and you are claiming “it” gives you qualities. Does this work the other way... “the devil made me do it?”
I would love to have some sort of proof of God beyond the fruit, and I'm not pretending to have it. And like I've said before, God provides me fruit if I seek it. God doesn't make me do anything.
I don't know if there's something out there that provides more things like selfishness or hate, seems like people do a great job of providing enough of that on their own. Many do in the name of God, sadly.
Homer... “ love to have some sort of proof of God beyond the fruit”
“The fruit” or qualities of kindness, peace, love, etc are HUMAN qualities. It/they are not proof of god. Empathy is a developed ability that has helped humans evolve societal ties/relationships.
You also said: “ I don't know if there's something out there that provides more things like selfishness or hate, seems like people do a great job of providing enough of that on their own”
Again HUMAN trait. Whichever traits a person chooses or acts upon or develops or is born with (or without).
All these traits are necessary...ALL of them - it’s how they are used (when they are used) or “felt” ...and put into ACTION
Feeling kindness does no “good” until acted upon. Same with hate or greed or other such thoughts and “feelings”.
You have convinced yourself that you are “special” and are sharing that “specialness” (thread name) BUT your relationship is in your head, as is your specialness.
When you are interested in getting as close to what is true as possible...then maybe it’ll be a more worthwhile discussion. This is like someone holding up their “lucky socks” and telling me how good they work.
Edited to add: But at least the socks exist!
I don't believe I'm special at all. I would like to believe such a thing is available to all. I haven't had any positive results with anything like "lucky socks", lol.
I have very positive results with God. No magical prayers being answered at my every request, no magic genie in a bottle, just a positive repeatable experience of these qualities with faith.
...and you believe in prayer...ROTFLMAO.
I pray, but I don't look for some sort of magical result of them being answered. I pray and get joy. Is that something to roll on the floor laughing over?
If you think prayer works then yes. How many parents daily pray to their imagined deity to cure their child's life threatening or life changing ailment? If their deity can't be bothered to make sure every fucking one of those children is cured, then praying for anything else is asinine, as even were it real, you'd be praying to an amoral monster.
Try and get some joy out of the fact that millions of children die every year from malaria, cancer and dysentery, then ask yourself why you're praying to a deity that could prevent that, but does nothing.
@Dworkin: PAY ATTENTION NOW: Homer's feet have been held to the flame and he has offered up no evidence (KNOWLEDGE) what so ever for his god claim. He finally caves in and admits that he can not prove the claim. (THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE PERSON MAKING THE CLAIM.) He attempts to shift the burden of proof by asserting the Atheists can not prove a god does not exist. He actually believes this is an argument. HE HAS NO KNOWLEDGE - NOTHING THAT COUNTS AS KNOWLEDGE THOUGH HE ASSERTS IT.
HOMER IS AN -------- (WAIT FOR IT......) --------- AGNOSTIC THEIST!
He counts his personal experience as "KNOWLEDGE." Personal experience can only be counted as KNOWLEDGE pending independent verification. (That means science and testing.) His standard of logic and rationality is so incredibly low as to be on par with the average client in a Psychiatric ward. "I had the experience and I believe it." (Psychopathology by any definition.)
THIS IS AN AGNOSTIC THEIST!
I think you may be confusing subjective and objective knowledge. I would recommend a reading of Berkeley and Wittgenstein in this respect. Interestingly, many people think that Wittgenstein is countering Bishop Berkeley from an atheist perspective, but W. himself notes that he is not doing that.
@David, did you get those fruits when you held faith in God? Did they lessen or increase when you believed no longer?
I lost a great level of those traits without believing in God. I find that assertion about the Fruits to be so true.
What is the significance of that word being capitalized?
It was unintentional, at least I think it was. I meant to capitalize God and Spirit.
"did you get those fruits when you held faith in God? Did they lessen or increase when you believed no longer?"
When I was a theist they were just rules to be followed, with little consideration. And for the record, I was a pure asshole. I followed those rules, but I used up and walked all over people.
When I transitioned to becoming a practicing atheist and carefully thought through moral implications of my actions, I have become gentler, more caring, loving, considerate, and compassionate. I became fuller and better person when I dropped pretending in a god.
@Cognostic I believe the Christ showed me a way to God. I'm not sure what you mean by me being a dupe for an entire religion. What have I done to earn that assertion?
@homer: Demonstrate either to be real. Christ or God.
past tense: duped; past participle: duped
"He was duped into rationalizing the amoral and untrue passages of the Bible.
@Homer, how does your behaviour being changed by your belief remotely validate that belief?
Is that really your most compelling reason for believing a deity is real?
You have any better reasons?
I never claimed to believe a deity exists, you did, so is that really the most compelling reason you have for believing a deity exists, that your behaviour alters? You also have still not explained how a belief altering your behaviour remotely validates that belief?
Lol I tried up there in the earlier part of the thread!
Here: "My accepting a deity's existence to receive it is the most compelling evidence for me."
"My accepting a deity's existence to receive it is the most compelling evidence for me."
Let us perform a word swap so you may understand if your statement holds water.
"My accepting Daffy Duck's existence to receive it is the most compelling evidence for me."
So now Daffy is real and a god, just because I made that assertion? To be perfectly honest, it is a dumbass statement. But right now, my assertion carries just as much weight as yours because neither of us has offered any evidence or proof to back up our assertions.
That is what most of us are asking for, go beyond just the feel-good and explain why.
I quite understand and appreciate your point! To you, it makes no sense, but to me, appreciating a difference internally that I can't provide to you in any manner than describing the difference, it is something I really don't know how to provide a proof.
I know I'm stuck getting beyond this point in my explanation, and I'll have to live with that. And that's OK by me, leave it on me as someone making a dumbass statement, I'm fine with having a burden of proof being asked of me that I can't provide.
Getting closer .......
You stated "appreciating a difference internally that I can't provide to you in any manner than describing the difference".
Please describe that internal difference. Is it euphoria? Calm mind? A raging brain? Contentment? An erection? Hairs on your arms stand up? Please describe something.
Edit/Added this part:
There was a time when I had a nice large bank account. It gave me tremendous financial stability. With that situation and stability backing me up, I was calmer and more at peace with the world. Something like that?